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Operation Desert Life
Sunday, May 09 2010 - 09:51 PM
Graffiti Meeting nothing more than another headline opportunity.
Well I reported in in January, I reported it in February and I have reported it every month this year to multiple sources and communication channels.
I have come to the conclusion that the graffiti abatement programs are nothing more than an opportunity for cities to grab another newspaper headline to appease the people.
Still there is extensive volumes of graffiti (both tagger and gang) on 240th and El Mirage. Still there is graffiti on every sign down Avenue N between 50th and 90th. Still there is graffiti on walls around the water run off in Palmdale off 17th East and Boysenberry. Still every sign on Ranch Vista Blvd from 30th West to the freeway is covered in graffiti, stickers, and slap tags.
I was at the graffiti meeting and it was a total joke. The officer was very informative, but to be honest Palmdale is clueless about how to address, where to address and how often to address graffiti abatement.
To their defense however I think it stems from a flawed system from the start in that it requires someone to report an issue before they can even clean it up.
What’s wrong with implementing a proactive system and have the workers work on commission.
Has anyone ever thought about establishing a high vehicle traffic route (based on current data available) to just send out the workers to address any graffiti rather than wait for calls to come in?
Has anyone ever thought about making the graffiti tracker database public so there can be accountability for high crime areas or what stays around for weeks or even months before getting cleaned up?
Has anyone ever figured out a simple and effective way to remove slap tags and safety stickers that doesn’t take months to complete?
Has anyone going to enforce the signage ordinances that restrict garage sale, advertising and political signs from being installed on traffic lights and electrical poles?
The budget is something that every city has to deal with these days, but some things can be done with little or not budget and actually generate revenues.
Maybe it’s time for cities to outsource abatement and clean up to local business and let the free market help take care of the problem.
I’m really tired of all of the graffiti and no matter what the city says it’s getting worse.. it may not be as much big paint graffiti like it was 5 years ago, but that’s because it’s shifting to smaller more frequent (and more destructive) traffic/street sign mini tags.. everywhere..
avbornbred says...
I have a solution. When a juvenile is arrested and convicted of vandalism, assign the parents and guardians of the vandals to work details removing graffiti.
A family of a tagger could remove a lot of graffiti every Saturday for several months. Gangsters don’t like their family unit being humiliated. Mayber the thought of mom and day painting walls on their behalf would make them think twice about promoting their criminal street gang.
If the offender commits another act of vandalism, start cutting off their thumbs so they can’t hold a spray can anymore.
The cost of graffiti removal in the State of California is staggering. It is in the millions. The cost of the private sector removing graffiti is also staggering. A few thumbs to save millions of our tax paying dollars will send a positive message.
To my friends of the left, Graffiti is not a free speech issue, it is a crime.
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lancaster says...
abb. just happy not to live in ur world!
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roxi says...
There’s been some successful programs in LA that take the busted graffiti taggers and get them into art classes – which is great since there isn’t any art for these kids anymore. Most of the taggers now are skateboard kids-at least in my area. The city of Palmdale has a team that go around and do the best they can.
Avbb, am sure you’re being sarcastic when you say to ‘cut off their thumbs’! Yes, graffiti is vandalism – but not arson/murder/or bombing.
Take that million and restart art classes in high schools – simple.
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moondevil says...
Art classes? You can’t be serious! How about we just impound their skateboards AND their parents vehicles instead.
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Captain Jason says...
Back when I was a Lieutenant in 1990, I was assigned to a challenging project in a very large Tarzana apartment complex that had, among other problems, a massive tagger graffiti problem. My force consisted of too few officers to be able to simply catch them all, so I had to get innovative. What I came up with was a program that allowed them to utilize a pretty large wall in the back of the complex as “authorized Graffiti Artists” with a license to put up their graffiti signed by the owner of the property. It was extraordinarily effective. Our graffiti problem on the rest of the property dropped by approximately 97% nearly overnight. It turned out that these kids really did have true artistic talent which, over time, we were able to redirect into more socially accepted formats that allowed for several of them to actually get decent employment in that field! The benefits to the communtiy of this program became even greater as these previously “outside of the system” kids started to work within the system and became some of our best intelligence sources on the drug dealing and gangs in the neighborhood, allowing for us to better focus our meager forces to greater effectiveness on rooting out the harder criminal element to great effect. We reduced overall crime in that entire area by a wide margin within a mere 6 months.
Don’t be so quick to go strictly enforcement based in reaction to the problem. Remember: the goal is to stop the problem, not necessarily to put everybody in jail.
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mattkeltner says...
From my end of it, I can attest that Art classes for the graffiti-prone are definitely the answer to curbing graffiti. Most of these young men (and some young women) are bored. Plain and simple.
When you start off an Art class with taggers, they will tag on paper at first. This is normal. Then, as their teacher, you ask them to “do their best” tagging — as if they’re in a contest. When they exhibit their best. Then you ask them to do another art piece — this time, of a scene in nature they believe to be beautiful. Some of the kids will draw places that their parents took them as children, maybe some sort of camping trip, or places they remember being before the trouble began in their lives. Then, when they finish these pictures of beautiful places that they remember, I ask them to graffiti them. Most of them will stare at you with a blank look on their faces. Then you have to be firm and insist, “please, put graffiti on it!”. Then, they’ll protest for a bit and may or may not do it. Here’s where the lesson is learned.
Then, it becomes clear that they no longer appreciate graffiti anymore than anyone else.
Then, you can incorporate a history lesson on the “graffiti” of the Native Americans and the use of petroglyphs and how they specifically used caves for their artwork in order to preserve the beauty of the creation outside. Then we talk about the spirituality of the Native Americans in historical terms and how they saw Spirit in everything that existed, and therefor, took special care of it. Most of the kids in tagging crews have some religious background, and this is a good way to tap into that and activate their conscience on the subject.
Where the city is concerned, if there isn’t funding available for Art programmes, then I would suggest doing what other Southern California cities have done and plant drought-resistant vines. They are aesthetically pleasing and a good preventative deterrent for taggers as well.
138hwy says...
Holy crap!!!
What a bunch of looney leftists on this chat line. “When I was a lieutenant.” lol!!!
“used caves for their artwork.” haha
No wonder why this un-vettedd racist won the last election. Keep these one-liners rolling; you clueless idiots.
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mattkeltner says...
Let me be known as a “leftist” rather than someone who dug my heels in the sand and sought extreme disciplinary measures as a solution to every problem.
I don’t have anything against a city seeking to recooperate from parents what it lost in resources for grafitti abatement. On the other hand, I would rather approach the problem from a holistic angle and get to the root of it.
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Captain Jason says...
Speaking of the severity of punishments, and the inadvisability of such, Cesare Beccaria (one of the great influences on our founding fathers) had this to say in 1764:
“In proportion as punishments become more cruel, the minds of men, as a fluid rises to the same height with that which surrounds it, grow hardened and insensible; and the force of the passions still continuing, in the space of an hundred years the wheel terrifies no more than formerly the prison. That a punishment may produce the effect required, it is sufficient that the evil it occasions should exceed the good expected from the crime, including in the calculation the certainty of the punishment, and the privation of the expected advantage. All severity beyond this is superfluous, and therefore tyrannical.”
I would say that the concept of the cutting off of thumbs, or the removal of a parents’ ability to provide for their children by arbitrarily absconding with their necessary transportations, would be counterproductive and would, indeed, actually cause more severe crimes to be committed merely to cover up the lesser crime. Again, Cesare Beccaria admonishes:
“If punishments be very severe, men are naturally led to the perpetration of other crimes, to avoid the punishment due to the first. The countries and times most notorious for severity of punishments were always those in which the most bloody and inhuman actions and the most atrocious crimes were committed; for the hand of the legislator and the assassin were directed by the same spirit of ferocity, which on the throne dictated laws of iron to slaves and savages, and in private instigated the subject to sacrifice one tyrant to make room for another.”
If you truly wish only to react to the threat of crime with only an enforcement-based mentality, rather than engage in the much less expensive sociological ways to prevent it from recurring, then let us consider Beccaria’s time-tested and proven words on that subject:
“Crimes are more effectually prevented by the certainty than the severity of punishment.”
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roxi says...
What has evolved is that compassion and “sympathy for perverts and savages has gone out of style, yet the point was clear: compassion was just too good for some people…What we needed now was writers with solutions, … something by Ayn Rand…an affirmative literature, like ”God Is My Bank Teller." – Nelson Algren on writing, post WWII.
Sympathy for people who are struggling, or who are different is now unfashionable – to be successful and a millionaire with lots of material things is coined as ‘successful’. We are all survivors in this world, in one way or another – and to discard those who are unsavory to such society is ignorance, and criminal.
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Cybertariat says...
…And hide the pines with billboard signs … from sea to oily sea. —George Carlin.
See the connection?
Persevere…
Guy…
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ritcsilv says...
Why don’t we make the brats clean up their own trash. Oh ya it’s not right to make the trashers accountable, it’s call cruel and unusally punishment
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lancaster says...
sily, don’t think one person here has stated their against having the kids clean it up themselves. what’s being said is, THEY’RE KIDS. lets not turn them into hardened criminals.
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Captain Jason says...
ritcsilv, that is not what I said, and you damn well know it. Holding the perpetrator accountable for their action is perfectly appropriate. In fact, it is where another form of community justice, restorative justice, gets its roots.
Unfortunately, it is quite clear from your statement that you have no intention of actually thinking on this subject and intend to just spout off political claptrap.
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roxi says...
Matt: "Then you ask them to do another art piece — this time, of a scene in nature they believe to be beautiful. "
This is it – thank you Matt. They create something that is beautiful to them, and then are asked to destroy it with their monikers. They never LEARNED or understood from anyone of influence what is held beautiful, but only for what they DO NOT HAVE, because of their ‘class status’. This has been the main focus for 2 generations now – material wealth – not spiritual.
Is why inner-city kids are given opportunities to go to the woods and camp.
When they are asked to destroy something that means something to them, which may be the only thing they have-they make the connection. People with so-called ADVERTISED ‘happiness’ have everything, in their eyes.
Yes, the big lesson here is being responsible for one’s actions. Something, I might add-the Republicans still deny for where we are today financially – which reflects on the younger generation. If the big-bucks can get away with it – why can’t we? It’s a break-down of society, across the board.
To condemn by force/jail/denial of the meager wealth they do have is only to antagonize the beast and make it worse.
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avbornbred says...
Stop trying to justify the actions of criminals. By classifying them as street artist is ridiculous. They are not mis-guided youths or mis-understood, they are just short of being gang members or they are gang members. The amount of property damage is astronomical.
Matt, if you would like to organize an event to have these young street artist come and write on white canvas walls, more power to ya.
The lure of a tagger is to put his mark or moniker on something to impress or intimidate people of their own class, other taggers. When a tagger scales a freeway over pass to spray paint his moniker, he does it to offend law abiding citizens and to show off for other taggers.
Gang graffiti makes more sense. Gangs have written on walls to mark their neighborhoods, and to send messages. When looking at a wall covered with gang graffiti, one can understand what current events have happened in the “hood.” Cops look at this graffiti to understand who might be at war with who by reading and documenting the graffiti.
When an “X” appears over another moniker or gang name, it is usually followed by the gang name of moniker of the person who “X’t” it out.
Taggers tag for the sake of impressing other degenerates.
Graffiti of all types is costing us tax payers millions if not more. It is time of stiffer penalties and fines.
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roxi says...
So you’re saying that joining a gang isn’t misguided?! That’s a hoot. Since there’s generations of gangsters in LA, it’s become a family tradition!
Face it. It’s class-warfare.
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avbornbred says...
Joining gangs is brought on by a lot of reasons. Cultural, economical, fear, protection, and a lot more. It does not make a gang legit, they are criminal organizations that survive by preying on the public by a variety of motives.
Joining a gang is misguided, but for a lot of people, not joining could mean hardships for themselves and their families.
In someways, it is class warfare, other ways not. Crips and Bloods, have been a war for decades, both come from poor black neighborhoods, and they fight each other, not a good example of class warfare. Most Hispanic gangs battle each other, again, not class warfare. They may target people in other economic classes for their own benefit, which could be a sign of class warfare.
Still non of these are justified, they just exist.
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marino says...
Perhaps they could practice their art by painting the inside of jail cells while their parents (if they’re under 18) pay for the property damage they’ve caused.
To reward graffiti taggers with an art class won’t stop most of them from continuing their graffiti tagging.
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mattkeltner says...
How do you know that, Marino? Have you worked with any of them? Have you talked to them? Do you truly understand what kind of life they are coming from?
This archaic John Wayne mentality has got to go!
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avbornbred says...
Matt: I have worked with many gang members for over 25 yrs. Most of them join because of the attention, adrenaline, and status amongst their peers. Most of them, grow out of it, some go to prison, and some are gang members for life, or until they are killed. There are very few that seek help, because that would mean a death sentence. Getting jumped out of a gang is easy. Ten guys kick your ass. If you survive, you are no longer a member of the gang. The ones in the gang , don’t often seek outside assistance from people like yourself.
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mattkeltner says...
I’m not referring to gangs specifically, but also “tagging crews” as they are known, which are the ones responsible for the bulk of the graffiti now. For someone who has apparently worked with gangs for “25 years”, I thought you would have realised that.
AVbornbred: “Getting jumped out of a gang is easy. Ten guys kick your ass. If you survive, you are no longer a member of the gang.”
Yeah, I must say that it sounds so “easy”…
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avbornbred says...
Tagging crews (Krews) are also capable of violence. The new trend in the world of gangs in the mobile tagging crews. While traditional criminal street gangs held onto their “turf” and neighborhoods, taggers, don’t claim territory.
In the greater good of being able to tag in places, tagging crews are also driven by the same adrenaline high that a lot of gang members have. This has lead to killings amongst taggers. Taggers have killed witnesses, which has happened several times in the past few years in LA County.
Los Angeles County also has tagging crews registered as criminal street gangs. The taggers have become just as much a threat to our community as normal gangs have been.
Unfortunately, our government has labeled criminal street gangs as only a law enforcement problem. It is “Domestic Terrorism.” With the spread of gangs around the country, even into smaller rural communities, the quality of life, safety, and threat to our way of life has been altered by these terrorist. Although most our home grown, many come from south of our border and have ventured all over our country. The Federal Government should address the issue, especially with the MS 13 gang. The level of terrorism around our country is hear, and the feds ignore it.
While the citizens of our country have their safety jeopardized by these gangs, our government ignores the issues.
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Captain Jason says...
avbornbred says…
“Stop trying to justify the actions of criminals. By classifying them as street artist is ridiculous. They are not mis-guided youths or mis-understood, they are just short of being gang members or they are gang members.”
“Taggers have killed witnesses, which has happened several times in the past few years in LA County…. It is “Domestic Terrorism.””
So, AVBB, you are suggesting the death penalty for tagging? What’s next – the electric chair for DUI? How about public whipping for speeding? Maybe the rack for a busted taillight? Wanna bring back the scarlet letter for adultery? Where are your limits? How about we just put everybody to death for any crime whatsoever, even as we lower the threshhold for what is considered to be a crime. Would that make you feel safer? Shall we put to the pillory all of the democrats, or the republicans, depending upon which political persuasion happens to be in power at that time?
Is this your idea of civilized?
Seriously, are you so blinded by righteous anger that you can’t take a deep breath and look at the problem logically without immediately going to a ‘maximum penalty’ mentality? Is the answer to punish, punish, punish or to prevent the recurrence of the crime?
Which is more important to you: Punishing offenders or protecting the innocent from more victimization?
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avbornbred says...
The Death Penalty for tagging? NO. (How about a little sarcasm.) How about very stiff penalties. How about parents painting walls with their misunderstood artists. How about heavy fines, loss of drivers licenses.
Why should Captain Jason and others have to flip the bill for these little vandals.
As for your answer about punish, punish, punish. I agree. How about progressive discipline. A heavy fine for first offenders. Heavy community service for second offenses plus jail time. And then jail time, a fine, and community service for third offenses. If the damage exceeds a $1000, then it becomes a felony and adults could look at prison time.
Most judges would apply some type of probation. A violation of probation would also result in a jail sentence.
After that, the death penalty.
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Captain Jason says...
AVBB; So, if I read your response right (and do please correct me if I am mistaken here), you believe that it is more important to punish offenders than to protect the innocent from more victimization?
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scdyne says...
While I’m not against a graffiti wall or even art classes, I think that you are a bit out of touch with the scope of tagging today. What once was a gang like activity only taken up by misguided youth is now a global fad that everyone is getting involved in.
The biggest problem is (like I stated above) not with the spray paint graffiti, but with the marker and sticker tags in every sign and light pole from here to L.A.
Another matter related to this that I see evolving to nightmarish proportions is the illegal dumping including tires.
I think California is to blame for the tire problem. They make it so hard to get rid of tires that tires are just ‘forgotten’ every time one goes flat.
With synthetic grass becoming such a popular upgrade and people looking for ‘green’ solutions, you would think that tire recycling would be a boon business right now. Instead it costs a fortune to store tires and a fortune to dispose of them. The state tire fee is $1.75/tire for each new tire purchased and retailers can charge as much as $8.00/tire.
Then the Lancaster and Palmdale dumps charge an $8.00 per tire disposal fee with a limit of 4 tires.
Care to guess what that money goes toward? $1.75 goes to the California Integrated Waste Management Board (CIWMB) and the California Air Resources Board (ARB) and the rest is profit for the facility accepting the tires.
Why do we need to feed the beast when all the beast does is live to consume money?
Why doesn’t the state pay the consumer back the $1.75 a tire to recycle? With an estimated 44.8 million reusable and waste tires generated each year it would cost less than $80 million annually in recycling fees total. By using the same $1.75 it would be a wash if 100% of the tires were placed in a landfill, but the fact of the matter is only 27.6% of tires are not recycled and everything else is resold.
Even at $1.00 a tire there are a lot of scrap recyclers that could make a living off of turning in old tires and it would clean up the local community and environment as a whole.
Personally I think this is SOP for California, its run like a For Profit business instead of a Non Profit community organization.
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scdyne says...
I’d like to do more about it on my own, but as I learned at the workshop the places that are hardest hit are off limits to the public. It is expensive to clean up traffic and street signs and if done incorrectly can cause more harm than good so all one can do is report the problem and wait for the maintenance workers to eventually come out and screw up the sign themselves.
Ever heard of a hot knife sticker removal tool.. ever heard of a steam sticker removal tool.. ever heard of freeze spray and a plastic putty knife?
Ever heard of a abrasive blaster or dry ice?
Most of these tools are inexpensive or ALREADY OWNED by the city.. how about training someone on how to use them rather than let them sit in the storage yard unused..
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