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The red corner
Friday, October 14 2011 - 03:12 AM Yours in revolution. (Please note that the following type of comment posts will be deleted from this thread: those containing childish or otherwise offensive material; those which contain cut-and-pasted material that exceed fifty-percent of their total content; and those containing video clips regardless of whether or not they might be accompanied by any amount of original writings [the embedding of URLs or “hotlinks” within comment posts which serve to lead readers to video clips will be accepted as long as all such posts also contain original writings of no fewer than fifty words.]
Undocumented workers and public services
To me, depriving undocumented workers of the public services that their taxes pay for is an affront to simple human decency. Yes, I wrote “public services that their taxes pay for” because undocumented workers do pay taxes. In fact, approximately seventy-percent of undocumented workers pay personal income taxes, Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes. But, there are those who insist upon promoting the false notion that the undocumented constitute a gigantic drain on this society’s social welfare programs, public schools, hospitals etc.
In actuality, however, the federal government’s social welfare reform act of 1996 barred undocumented workers from virtually all federally-funded social welfare programs including housing assistance, food stamps and all forms of Medicaid. The only public services that the undocumented may avail themselves to are K-12 public education and emergency medical services. And, to all but the supremely ignorant, whether our undocumented brothers and sisters own their homes or whether they rent their homes, they pay property taxes which support public schools as well as other public services.
Yes, US-born children of undocumented workers are eligible for various food stamp programs. But it is only they – amongst their family members – who are so eligible. And the average food stamp benefit for such children is but approximately ninety-six-dollars per month or twenty-four-dollars per week – $3.24 per day. This all the while the capitalist class writes off millions of dollars worth of golf ball “expenses” each year, and all the while our nativists say little to nothing about such corporate wealthfare programs. Apparently, subsidizing the material needs of poorer, US-born children regardless of the immigration status of their parents is a “bad thing” while the subsidizing of the capitalist class’ golf balls fails to elicit any type of response from our xenophobes. What a lovely society we have here. What a lovely society indeed.
Now of course many undocumented workers do in fact place a burden on certain US border cities where they first arrive, unemployed and without money. But mean-spirited – indeed inhumane Draconian anti-immigration legislation is not the solution. I believe that the solution would be for the federal government to give these border cities the surplus tax monies that it collects from undocumented workers. This would serve to defray the cost that such cities and counties incur by providing public services to undocumented workers and their families.
So perhaps the most important reason that US border cities are so burdened is because of the federal government’s failure to institute some sort of guest worker program. A program of that kind could, as such programs have in the past, match workers with agricultural capitalists and the like ahead of time so that these workers would not be stranded and unemployed in border cities for extended periods of time.
Indeed and as I stated earlier this day and within a separate thread, the alleged cost of undocumented workers is a false issue that has been invented by those who do not want immigrants of color to be here in the first place and regardless of whether or not undocumented workers contribute to this society or not. But the undocumented do contribute to this society. They most certainly do.
Guy R. Marsh
Lancaster
93536
Member-at-large (since 1990):
Socialist Labor Party of America (est. 1890)
Thank you.)
Sovereignty Soldier says...
The fact of the matter is that American’s won’t pick crops
B.S. I will if I can make a decent wage. I need Staurday work so…
I would be happy with 80.00-120.00 a day and would do manual labor for it. This besides my 36.00 an hour normal job.
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RealSteve says...
Cyertariat
Got E-Verify? Using it blows a hole in your “they pay taxes”, but don’t collect them.
Facts are facts, most illegals work off the books in the underground economy and not anymore with false documentation, or at least so without the cooperation of the greedy business owner that is exploiting illegal immigrants by short wages, substandard working conditions or any number of ways that businesses use to cheat the tax man.
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Cybertariat says...
“Using [E-Verify] blows a hole in your ‘they pay taxes’ but don’t collect [benefits].”
I see, Steve. Would you mind explaining exactly how it is that the E-Verify system negates the fact than many undocumented workers pay taxes?
Thank you, sir.
And yes, as I explained within my New Post entitled “‘The Borders Remain Porous’” (Dec., 2007), it is the capitalist system of wage exploitation which creates undocumented immigration and all of its many corollaries including “shorting” workers with respect to their wage, substandard working conditions, and exposure to toxic chemicals in the first place.
I don’t see how any of this serves to negate what I wrote, but I await your response nonetheless, Steve.
"Unauthorized Immigrants Pay Taxes, Too
.
Good evening.
Persevere.
Guy
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RealSteve says...
Guy
Easy. If an employer is using E-Verify, then bogus, used, fake SSN’s are rejected. If they don’t have a SSN, they don’t “pay taxes”, outside of sales taxes on goods they buy.
But the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of illegals work off the books, so they don’t pay SS taxes. Let’s not even talk about how many illegals pay into State safety net income sources, like income tax, workman’s comp and a whole host of others.
Unless the magnet which attracts illegals to come to this country, jobs and jobs on the underground market, gets turned off, illegal immigration will continue.
Realistically though, big business likes illegals that they can exploit, and Liberals can’t face up to their base and admit that open borders and flooding the country with cheap labor who works off the books is killing the lower class and now the middle class.
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RealSteve says...
Guy
How about finding common ground, illegals that commit some level of crime, let’s call it a felony, should be deported. All criminals when arrested, a very legal status, should be required to be identified while being processed into the justice system. If found to be illegal, they don’t get out of jail, and if found to have been deported before, locked up here in the most strenuous conditions we can create and still be fine under the US constitution and restrictions on cruel and inhuman punishment.
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marino says...
You can’t even simply refer to “Operation Wetback” without being looked at as a racist.
You can’t demand immigration laws be enforced with being looked at as a racist by many.
You head your platform with enforcement of immigration laws and you will be body slammed by the media and special interest groups.
I along with most Americans, Cybertariat, want immigration laws enforced. So most Americans don’t give a flying fuck about corrupt capitalists and what they want.
You don’t trade in capitalism for socialism because of a few rotten bananas. I toss mine. Just the rotten ones.
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Cybertariat says...
RealSteve: “If an employer is using E-Verify, then bogus…SSNs are rejected.”
Actually, even if an employer is using E-Verify which is not mandatory in many states including California, there are any number of ways in which both capitalists and their potential workers are able to circumvent the E-Verify system. Like a burglar alarm system or an automobile breathalyzer, the highly unconstitutional E-Verify system is easily defeated. Southern California’s Vellarta Supermarket chain, as an example, adopted E-Verify approximately five years, but Vellarta still employs a very high percentage of undocumented workers. Obviously, Vellarta and its undocumented workers have found ways of “getting around” the E-Verify system.
There is no doubt that at least some of California’s agricultural capitalists have acquired E-Verify in order to pacify law enforcement and reactionary consumers. But to believe that these same agricultural capitalists are now employing fewer undocumented workers is to believe most anything. Simply stated, they, too, deceive the paper tiger known as the E-Verify system.
RealSteve: “If they [undocumented workers] don’t have SS numbers, they don’t pay taxes outside of sales tax on goods they buy.”
But it is not true that "If they don’t have SS numbers, they don’t pay taxes because the Internal Revenue Service began issuing what are called Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers (or ITTN) some fifteen years ago. Millions of undocumented workers now use ITTNs in the hope of their gaining citizenship which would enable them to be eligible for Social Security and Medicare benefits.
Moreover, counterfeit Social Security cards and all other forms of counterfeit identification are easily obtained.
Also, unless RealSteve would care to demonstrate how it is that the undocumented do not pay property taxes, either by owning or by renting their homes, undocumented workers also pay property taxes which are used to support public schools, fire departments, sewage treatment facilities, libraries, etc., etc.
So too do undocumented workers pay hotel taxes to local governments and municipalities, vehicle rental taxes to state governments which are collected in addition to state sales taxes, state and federal gasoline taxes, as well as liquor and tobacco excise taxes that fund government on the state, local and federal levels.
Indeed, the insinuation that it is only sales taxes that are paid by undocumented workers is as manipulative as it is ill-informed.
RealSteve: “…big business likes illegals that it can exploit. And liberals can’t admit that open borders are flooding the country with cheap labor…[and] is killing the lower and middle classes.”
But the fact that hundreds of human beings die each year while attempting extremely dangerous border crossings should be enough for all to understand that our borders are anything but “open.”
Too, I do not believe that anyone, including liberals, fails to understand that undocumented immigration carriers with it a deleterious effect on low wage workers. But so do many other aspects of capitalist rule serve to continuously drive down the wages of all workers. I believe that all conscious people simply find that Draconian and thus inhumane deportation policies are not the way to deal with the problem of undocumented immigration. Nullifying NAFTA, CAFTA and still other antisocial international trade agreements that have driven tens of millions of additional Mexican and Central American workers into a cycle of grinding poverty since 1994 would go a long way toward the alleviation of undocumented immigration while the establishment of globalized socialism would, on the other hand, see to the end of undocumented immigration.
RealSteve: How about finding common ground: illegals that commit…felonies should be deported."
Yes of course. I haven’t a problem with that. Provided, of course, that their immigration status would be determined after their having been convicted rather than before. Doing so beforehand would not only be unconstitutional, it would also serve to damage the already fragile relationship between law enforcement agencies and the minority communities that they serve.
As for your “locked up here in the most strenuous of conditions,” Steve, how is it that that would not constitute cruel and unusual punishment? Why is it that so many people believe that incarceration need be inhumane? If your answer is “deterrence,” then I believe you to be incorrect. For treating prisoners as if they were wild animals only results in their being less able to behave responsibly upon their being released from custody.
Many undocumented workers reinforce the Social Security program
…Working Hard and Paying Taxes
Persevere.
Guy
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Cybertariat says...
Ray Cunneff: “You [Billy] persist with the idea that all of us who do not share your political views are of one mind on subjects like illegal immigration. I can’t speak for the others you’ve named, except I’m quite certain that it’s not true.”
Perhaps the reason that many of our political reactionaries stand so very confused with respect to that point, Ray, has to do with the fact that you, Matt, and myself disagree without making derogatory comments about one another. Perhaps you and Matt do not draw attention to yourselves for being racists simply because neither of you dehumanize Latinos by referring to them as “wetbacks.” Nor have either of you ever engaged in the decidedly racist practice of equating other human beings with cockroaches. And perhaps no one sees you as being a homophobe due to the fact that never have you used such homophobic and thus dehumanizing terminology as “peterpuffer” or, say, “buttboy.”
Racist and homophobic are what racist and homophobic do.
Ray Cunneff: “We do not get our ‘marching orders’ from George Soros or moveon.org, in fact, I’ve never even visited that website and wouldn’t know Soros if I tripped over him.”
Exactly. Furthermore, to me, Matt is a right-leaning moderate. To fail to understand these things about the two of you is to reveal an incredibly high degree of political naivete about oneself. To suggest that my writings are not firmly based upon a rather incredible amount of reading/research throughout the past thirty-one years is also quite ignorant. And to refer to me as a “liberal” is the very pinnacle of political naivete; akin to the obliviousness having to do with there being a “hump” on my back or that I wear glasses. I suppose that the subpar intelligence of those who scribble such inanity need be considered.
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mattKeltner: “For the record, I do not agree with what Guy wrote about illegal immigrants not costing the taxpayers anything.”
Actually, as my having written “…many undocumented workers do in fact place a burden on certain US border cities…” (see this thread’s parent post), never have I stated that undocumented immigration does not cost taxpayers anything. For, again, with respect to border communities, it does. But the simple fact of the matter is that undocumented immigration provides a small net benefit to this society’s economy. Overall, undocumented workers contribute more to federal coffers than what they take in the form of federally-provided benefits. Yes, respecting some county and local governments and despite their paying of sales taxes and property taxes, the undocumented do tend to use more resources such as public education and health care than what they contribute in the form of tax monies. But this is precisely why I suggested that the federal government give border cities and counties the surplus tax monies that it collects from undocumented workers. This would serve to defray the cost that such cities and counties incur by providing public services to undocumented workers and their families. Is it odd that all of this forum’s participated my suggestion? Not at all.
So too are undocumented workers replenishing – and helping to fund Social Security and Medicare benefits for – an aging workforce that will be retiring in gigantic numbers over the next twenty years or so.
In the final analysis, it is xenophobia, job insecurity and dwindling government resources that are driving this latest widespread backlash against an influx of people of color.
Good evening.
Persevere.
Guy
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mattkeltner says...
Cybertariat: “Furthermore, to me, Matt is a right-leaning moderate.”
Interesting assessment, Guy! :-) That’s probably pretty accurate and I’ll go along with it.
I’m a tad too far to the right to be a “good Democrat”, but the GOP wouldn’t be too fond of me either, especially on gay rights, the environment and reproductive choice where I lean more left. I’m sort of a “Teddy Roosevelt Republican” — if they even exist anymore?
Good call!
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ritcsilv says...
To poor to be a Republican, and to far to the right to be a Democat. But let take this issure of the illegal a little bit more. To cut down on the illegals in the fields lets take the prisoner in both state and county out there into the fields with chains on and let them start earning their keep
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RealSteve says...
@ritcilv
I’m all in favor of tent city jails to lock up any illegal alien until they can go before a judge, found guilty of being here illegally and sent home.
For those who are found to come back after being kicked out once, I’d probably agree with your chain gang approach from those very same desert tent city prisons, or ones with shoot to kill orders for escapees.
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Cybertariat says...
SEVERAL ABUSIVE COMMENT POSTS HAVE BEEN STRICKEN FROM THIS THREAD.
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ritcsilv says...
Not only do I belive in the chain gang approch for the prisons in these farm fields I also believe that everyone that works in any company that receives most of there moneys from taxes ex: schools,hosipals,county, state and federal jobs all should have to be citizens of the U.S.A
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AV Town Crier says...
Cyber
I tend to go along with what you say. The fact of the matter is that American’s won’t pick crops and few apply for housecleaning duties in the hotels.
I think we need to have a common sense approach to dealing with the illegal immigration problem.
A guest worker program that was well thought out and would only be applicable if no citizens applied for the jobs first.
Let’s not forget, right now we have a high unemployment so that’s a game changer. But once the unemployment rate drops back to 4% or so—there will be all kinds of jobs that citizen’s just won’t do. Therefore, it’s not out of the question to bring in immigrants to do those jobs.
When I was a M & O supervisor for the LAUSD, there was a time that we couldn’t get anybody to apply for jobs a school custodian (even though the pay and benefits were pretty good.)
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