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Thursday, June 30 2011 - 03:05 AM Persevere..
Homophobia kills!
As much as I would like to view the hate-speech crime that was committed at the Texas Cattle Company earlier this week as a simple case of vandalism, I cannot because I possess a very clear understanding of the fact that homophobia kills. Along with the thousands upon thousands of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered (LGBT) people who are murdered each year, worldwide and due to nothing more than their respective sexualities, so too are there countless suicides by LGBT people each year which, according to mental health experts, are not the consequence of the victim’s sexuality, but rather the result of the way in which LGBT peoples are treated by society. For when a human being lives with rejection on a daily basis, and society largely devalues one’s personhood, it often becomes a struggle to sustain perspective and to understand that the problem lies with other people’s perceptions, rather than with one’s own perceptions, which is precisely the reason why rates of suicide are substantially higher amongst LGBT people than they are amongst heterosexual people.
The highest price for homophobia is paid by young lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders. Young LGBT peoples who are entering into adulthood and who have begun to understand that they are different, and that that difference is – by and large – rejected by “straight” society, frequently find self-acceptance as being extremely difficult to achieve. That is the reason why young lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders committ suicide infinitely more frequently than do young heterosexuals. Moreover, and although sociopolitical reactionary Christians could not possibly care any less, acts of alleged vandalism – of spray-painted “KILL ALL GAYS” can be the tipping point of suicidal behavior.
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“Straight Americans need an education of the heart and soul. They must understand – to begin with – how it can feel to spend years denying your own deepest truths, to sit silently through classes, meals, and church services while people you love toss off remarks that brutalize your soul.” —Bruce Bawer, The Advocate, April 28, 1998. (Emphasis mine and for reasons having to do with that which is very personal.)
“One should no more deplore homosexuality than left-handedness.” —Towards a Quaker View of Sex. (I so appreciate gentle religions.)
Finally, that which often seems as though it was written especially for me:
“Is life not a hundred times too short for us to stifle ourselves?” —Frederich Nietzsche
Guy R. Marsh
Lancaster, 93536
Sovereignty Soldier says...
Only the weak minded commit suicide Guy. Vandalism is never justified and if it were not VANDALIZED, those words wouldn’t be there. The real problem you have is some people will not accept it even in their mind. See I ordinarily keep these feelings to myself. But the issue was vandalism vs. “hate” crime, which is really just special protection for special groups. Thousands of ugly people commit suicide each year too, but nobody seeks special protection for them.
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Sovereignty Soldier says...
Nobody advocated that leonard. You see what you want. The issue, again, was vandalism vs. hate crime. You show me anywhere I advocated any of the messages or the act itself. Please, I know it is hard when you disagree, but do not put words in my mouth.
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mattkeltner says...
“One should no more deplore homosexuality than left-handedness.” —Towards a Quaker View of Sex. (I so appreciate gentle religions.)
As do I, and I’m glad that we have that in common!
Now, just remember that the Quakers are a branch of Christianity, so it suffices to say that not all Christians are intolerant, bigoted or paleolithic in their thinking in the same sense that fundamentalists like Mike (SS) are.
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Jack says...
Guy, don’t let people on some blog, stop you from persuing your goals in life, we can all learn something from each other in life, if we stop looking at our disagreements.
As far as who you are, I don’t have an issue with it, I think people here have overblown the stereotype of different people,s negative perception of LGB,s.
Btw check your FB, message sent.
Have a good evening
Persevere
Jack Unger
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saywhat says...
I must say Mr. SS that in another post you admitted standing behind a couple of gay youths, getting upset because of your disgust over there personality’s and movie choices. And because of your disgust of WHO THEY ARE, you proceeded to call them faggots. And then with glee, you spoke about how you were able to get others in line to also speak hatefully to these young people.
Your hate, which you as an American, are entitled to your have, is fine.
The minute you allowed your hate to interfere with another Americans day is not fine.
And depending on the line of people you were standing with, your hate could of turned tragic. Which also, based on no other motivation then your hate, (And spare us the “hate the sin, not the sinner” bullshit) would of made the crime that followed a hate crime.
And hate crime legislation is needed because of people like you. People who lie to themselves about what the bible says. You hate because it brings you a sense of superiority. Which bible? If your a Christian, why quote the old testament? And if you follow the old testament, why aren’t you trying to save those who have lunch and dinner at Red Lobster? Or those who buy the wrong cotton/wool blend? And will you force your daughter to marry her abuser? Or stone her to death with she back talks you as a teenager?
If the answer to any of the above is no, then quit lying and blaming God for your hatred. Man up!
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Cybertariat says...
We do indeed share an appreciation for non-dogmatic religions, Matt. As you know, I have been a Unitarian Univeralist for some thirty
years now, and that I am always careful to point to the likes of SS as being politically reactionary and/or dogmatic Christians, thereby disassociating them from their non-dogmatic brethren.
Persevere..
Guy..
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leonardpflemkin says...
SS, in my reply to Cyberariat’s post, I was commenting on what he wrote. I wasn’t referring to you at all. I was stating my personal understanding of hatred toward gays through my personal Christian perspective. I wasn’t thinking of you at all when I wrote it; I was contemplating what I have learned and read and experienced in my faith journey over the years.
As for the incident itself, it was both vandalism and a hate crime; and hate crimes, in my opinion, extend beyond a crime against someone’s faith, ethnicity and sexual orientation. Many crimes that are committed have hate as a root cause.
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Sovereignty Soldier says...
I must say Mr. SS that in another post you admitted standing behind a couple of gay youths, getting upset because of your disgust over there personality’s and movie choices.
WRONG!! Go back and read again. I was looking at the movies while behind them in line. That is what I said. Read the words, not what you assume is between the lines. Never mentioned their personality either.
And because of your disgust of WHO THEY ARE, you proceeded to call them faggots. And then with glee, you spoke about how you were able to get others in line to also speak hatefully to these young people.
Again, go back and read it again. STOP putting words in my mouth.
The story was, funny boy decided to make a rude comment in reference to me viewing the movie choices over their shoulders. There was only 1 confused individual. He made the comment twice to be sure I heard it. He started with his rude comment. I finished with him leaving the store. All could be avoided if he kept his mouth shut. The guy behind me commented “It’s true, look at his belt”. I did not egg him on, I mentioned that to show that many(especially men) do not accept it.
We are not saved by the law, but by Jesus’ grace and sacrifice, as well as our faith. The old testament commandments still apply to us. I suppose you would say the Ten Commandments are null and void huh? No. We are to follow Gods rules as best we can, NOT to be saved, but out of committment. We are to believe on Jesus’ name for salvation.
Gods’ Word says “abomination”.
You can change your mind, but you cannot change Gods’ Word and commandments. They still apply today, although mans law often interferes.
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Ray Cunneff says...
I was raised Catholic. I had problems early on with the church and looked into other faiths, Protestant, Jewish, Buddist… But none of them felt genuine to me.
I finally asked myself, why do I need a go-between to God? If there is a God, why can’t I speak to him/her directly?
So I now reject ALL religions. Their hate and intolerance is a cancer on the human soul. There is little difference between Christian zealots and the Taliban.
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Sovereignty Soldier says...
You all read what you want and add to my comments. Because you don’t like what the Bible says, you twist it or ignore parts of it and point at me for quoting it. You attempt to paint me with a hate brush because I will not accept it. I am traditional, get it? I believe America was a much better place in most cases back in the ‘50s, ’60s, and even ’70s. I believe media has done it’s job of slowly twisting a Christian nation into acceptance and tolerance of things detestable to God including the murder of unborn or partially born children.
With that said, I am bowing out of the debate as I keep having words put into my mouth and you cannot debate someone who keeps fabricating. Suffice to say, EVERY knee will bow and we will all see in the end!!
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Sovereignty Soldier says...
Ray church is anywhere 2 or more are gathered in His name. The Bible is Gods’ Word, His commands to us. To pick and choose what you obey is to say you know better than God.
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Ray Cunneff says...
SS,
So is eating shellfish an “abomination”. Does that keep you out of Red Lobster?
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AV Town Crier says...
Here we go again.
There’s no question that the gay community has been badly mistreated.
When I was a teen (way, way back in the 60’s) I used to hangout on the Sunset Strip (yes they had night clubs that allowed teens in).
The cops would beat up the gays for no reason. People finally had enough and they had marches on the Strip. I was 16 and me and my friends (we were straight) joined in as well as most straight people. Nobody thought it was right.
As a result, changes were made. After that, gays were NOT beat up and LA County had enacted policies protecting gays. It was the first of many steps till gays got the same (almost) as everyone else. (I think gay unions/marriage, or whatever you want to call it, will be the final right to make gays equal).
Like them or not (your choice) they are human being and deserve to be treated with the same human dignity that we all do.
I will agree that like any other human group, you will have good people and bad.
But all this hatred and abuse has to stop! This cannot be tolerated in a peaceful society.
With that said, nobody is asking you (if yo are strait to join them, or participate in the culture, or attend gay pride activities, or invite them into your homes, if that’s how you feel. You certainly have the right to appose gay marriage if you so choose (as those are more political than anything else right now) But you don’t have the right to deprive then of the same and equal rights and treatment.
If you are a good Christian, it would seem to me that you would treat them as you would like to be treated.
While SS might feel that he has no sympathy for those who kill themselves, that’s his right. But, he probably never had to put up with the non-stop bullying that they suffer during their school years. A time when everything is traumatic.
I witnessed it happen when I was in school and it still happens today. This has to end. It’s just not right.
Plus, what’s wrong with a little civility and courtesy toward another human being. Can’t we all get along?
OK, I’m done, and stepping off my soapbox now.
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Sovereignty Soldier says...
So is eating shellfish an “abomination”. Does that keep you out of Red Lobster?
Firstly, I do not care much for seafood, so yes, Ray you won’t catch me in Red Lobster. However, besides that, when Jesus came there were more than a couple rules changed as He said it is not what a man puts into his body that defiles him, but what comes out of his mouth. So while I personally adhere to the “split hoof animal” being the clean, occaisonally I eat shrimp. I have never read where Jesus said homosexuality was not sinful though. God the Father on the other hand did address it.
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Sovereignty Soldier says...
I did not start the confrontation at the store. Maybe some do not agree with the way I handled it, but none of it would have happened if he did not get rude with me. The fact that he singles himself out by dressing blatantly homosexual should be enough of a caution to him to be polite and not push others buttons. Same rights? Of course! I have a right to defend myself from some rude little, teenage, punk who is wearing rainbows. If it would have been a straight dude it probably would have ended in a fight.
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Ray Cunneff says...
So what’s your opinion of escargot?
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ocn8tv says...
Then can we guess that you don’t have the Christian Fish, also called the Jesus Fish or Ichthys, the secret symbol of early Christianity stuck on the back of your car?
Was the person in front of you renting “Broke Back Mountain”? Maybe you should rent it.
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Ray Cunneff says...
Why should it have ended in a fight at all? You provoked it.
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mattkeltner says...
Sovereignty Soldier: So while I personally adhere to the “split hoof animal” being the clean, occaisonally I eat shrimp."
So, in other words, you don’t follow the same rules/dogma that you expect everyone else to. Go figure!
“I have never read where Jesus said homosexuality was not sinful though. God the Father on the other hand did address it.”
Newsflash: “God The Father” said no such thing! First of all, God is not a man! Grow up! You don’t need a Daddy-figure that bad, do you?
Secondly, God never “said” anything! Some very tribalistic and nationalistic men made commentary on homosexuality in the Old Testament. Yet, we know that King David told Jonathan, “I love you more than I have loved any woman”. We also know about Ruth and Naomi.
With regard to the New Testament, Paul was a notorious homophobe and hated any sort of sex: straight, gay, bi, whatever. He hated it. So he wrote his opinion on who he believed was “righteous” and who wasn’t.
God had absolutely nothing to do with any of it.
You, on the other hand, are a raging homophobe — filled to the brim with hatred — and you are using the opinions of someone who wrote something over 2000 years ago to make your case.
That’s pure insanity!
Get help! You’re warped!
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AV Town Crier says...
It should also be noted that Paul was known as ‘Paul the Liar.’ there’s good reason for that.
Matt
you are correct, god—the father (if you believe in that sort of thing-then again, I believe in Santa Clause, at least he comes thru every Xmas morning.)never spoke a word. Nobody has actually ever seen the dude. We’re supposed to take some clowns word for it that there is a god the father, or god or whatever.
I think it was all a scare tactic to keep us on the strait and narrow. Nothing makes a wayward shape up like the fear of god almighty. We always tend to fear what we can’t see.
I think this whole god concept is nothing more than a security blanket for those who can’t think for themselves, can’t be trusted to make the right decision, and can’t tell right from wrong.
On the same token, if that’s how they want to live, so be it—who a I to criticize how others choose to live.
Plus, Jesus himself never claimed to be a god (or any kind of deity) His followers at the time never claimed him to be anything but a teacher. I’m willing to accept that he was a great teacher of wisdom. At the time, he may have put the kibosh on certain things because people were perhaps over indulging or acting inappropriate or whatever.
But times have changed. I doubt that Jesus would condone treating gays in less than respectful ways. On the same token, I doubt if he would have encouraged anybody to become gay.
I think he probably would have said live and let live. Given on to Obama what belongs to thee and give unto God what belongs to thy (or words to that affect (I was paraphrasing because I can’t remember the exact quote. Sorry ’bout that)
In SS’s case, he might have handled it better. I’m not sure that being dressed a certain way makes one gay. Young people always dress sort of funny (as do old folks with their red slacks, white shoes and belts and plaid coats with pants up to their under arms).
On the same token, he was addressing rude behavior and had the right to do so. he may have gone too far. Sometimes, its better to turn the other cheek (I heard that somewhere . . ) I’m just saying . . .
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SaintPrick says...
Murder is senseless, period, whether you’re gay or straight. Do you think there was any rhyme or reason to the murders in that New York pharmacy a couple of weeks ago? Those people died because someone wanted to get high. Murder is deplorable in all cases, despite the motive.
As far as suicide, I have to agree with SS. suicide, unless one is terminally ill and in a great amount of physical pain, is one of the most selfish, cowardly acts someone can perpetrate on the people they leave behind. Suicide is for weak-willed cowards who can’t come to terms with the fact that life never goes like they thought it should.
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mattkeltner says...
AVTC,
I do believe in a higher power. I just like the Eastern term, “Mystic Law”, because that’s really what it is. I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a greater reality than simply the material plane. And, trust me when I tell you that I have poured through many scientific studies on the subjects of physics, astrophysics, cosmology and biology, psychology, neuroscience and even medical science. When you total all of them up, they paint a picture that can be comforting to some and unsettling to others.
Basically, that picture is that we aren’t random. There is, I guarantee you 200%, a greater purpose to our existence.
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AV Town Crier says...
Matt
I too agree with you on that point. I’m just is disagreement (as you) when they try to put a human face on it. I do believe in some form of life/energy form from which we all come from and will return to.
As for whether life is random or not, I can’t say. The entire universe (cosmos) is beyond comprehension (at our current level of knowledge and intelligence). It seems everyday day we learn something new that changes our entire concept. One thing for sure—there is a form of intelligence that is beyond our understanding.
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mattkeltner says...
“We are a way for the Universe to know Itself” – Dr. Carl Sagan (1934-1996)
I love that quote! So simple and logical and yet so elegant and mystical, all at once.
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AV Town Crier says...
“man is a god in ruins.” -Ralph Waldo Emerson or
“How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?” -Woody Allen
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avbornbred says...
CYBERGUY: You are correct in that 1000’s of gay people are murdered every year around the world, but not in Christian countries.
There is the occasional hate crime in our country that involves murder, but homosexuality is accepted in our country. Maybe not to the degree of allowing same sex marriages, but the everyday Joe Citizen knows that he or she works, goes to school, church, and to public events where there will be gay people.
Just because a people don’t agree on the same sex marriage issues, does not mean they are Homophobics.
Pesonally, I don’t agree with same sex marriage. Even when New York passing their gay marriage law, I did not lose any sleep over that law being passed. I know the USA is a Christian nation and gays are not going to be rounded up and killed because of gay marriage. Christians are accepting and will tolerate same sex marriage even though we feel it violates our beliefs. True Christians will not discriminate or turn away gay Christians from churches, except LBC. Christians will not round up and murder gays.
Don’t confuse Christian countries with countries where gays would be murdered and persecuted against. When was the last time you ever saw two guys holding hands in public in a Muslim nation?
Again, look at liberal Western Europe. All the countries in Western Europe are Christian nations. I would say that Christianity is tolerant and accepting of gays, even when the gay life style violates the letter of the law in the Bible. Christians for the most part use the Spirit of the Law when practicing their religion and in their everyday lives. The few Christian Extremest, such at the Westborough Babtists Church, are no different than the Muslim Extremest around the world.
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Cybertariat says...
“Bisexuality doubles your chances for a date on Saturday nights.” —Woody Allen
Oh yeah! :-)-
Persevere..
Guy..
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avbornbred says...
That is also a very true statement. But not at any LBC functions.
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AV Town Crier says...
America is NOT a Christian country nor was it ever one. Where do you guys come up with this crap?
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Cybertariat says...
Not at LBC functions, huh? Are you quite certain of that, avbornbred?
Persevere..
Guy..
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mattkeltner says...
avbornbred: "Don’t confuse Christian countries with countries where gays would be murdered and persecuted against. When was the last time you ever saw two guys holding hands in public in a Muslim nation?
Again, look at liberal Western Europe. All the countries in Western Europe are Christian nations. "
There is a kernel of truth in here, or perhaps more!
Which is why I wonder why Europe has allowed people from fundamentalist sects of Islam to immigrate there?
There have been open attacks on gay people in France, the UK and the Netherlands by homophobes from Islamic fundamentalist cults.
In one part of London (Tower Hamlets, I believe?) a group of Muslims recently hung a sign saying that gays were forbidden in their part of the city, which caused a huge public uproar and calls for a re-evaluation of immigration policies.
The Netherlands just elected a centre-right government that is very pro-gay, pro-feminist (hard to imagine in the U.S.) that is calling for deportations of Muslim extremists, vast reductions in immigration and strict assimilation laws that require all immigrants to learn Dutch and refrain from wearing the burqua.
In the U.S., I am a Democrat, but if I were in Europe, I would probably support the centre-right parties.
Strangely, the Socialist-Left parties in Europe turns their heads when women and gays are attacked by Muslim immigrants. But the Left is reaping the consequences for doing so as one nation after another turns to the right.( send private message )
Cybertariat says...
“We have a responsibility as parents and as authority figures not to encourage such thoughts and feelings from moving into the action steps.” —Marcus Bachmann
Really? Well, uh, good luck with that, Marcus – Michele’s “brain trust.”
“Never apologize for showing feelings. When you do, you apologize for the truth.” —Benjamin Disraeli
Thank you, roxi
Persevere..
Guy..
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marino says...
Just wanna wish a Happy 4th of July weekend to not only all you fine heterosexual folks out there but also to all the alternative sexual lifestyle folks. You too should have a fine weekend.
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mattkeltner says...
…and the jerky, homophobic comment was made for what reason?
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marino says...
I’m going to joke about everything and everyone including homosexuals and bisexuals. And 99% of true homophobes are non-straight that refuse to come out.
Convince me to change my opinion. The average straight person is nowhere near homophobic. That’s just a buzzword for gays and their supporters. The average straight person that some consider homophobic feel that heterosexuality is simply natural.
I like you, matt. I don’t care your sexual desires. I enjoy being with a woman and have no desire being with a man. I have no quams if some guy or girl want to fuck a tree stump. Nore should I. I just don’t want it shoved down my throat.
On the flip side I’m sure there are heterophobes out there that can’t stand being gay or bi.
I will never again go without anti-virus protection. But the break was nice.
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Cybertariat says...
Part of that which makes marino’s comment homophobic is that, one’s being gay or bisexual has absolutely nothing to do with one’s lifestyle which is typified by one’s “manner, attitudes, possessions, etc.” —Webster’s, rather than anything having to do with one’s sexuality which is clearly innate. “Lifestyle” when used by sociopolitical reactionaries in this context is coded language employed in the ongoing effort to thwart the movement toward equality for lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders.
Lifestyles are of course a choice, so when you hear the likes of marino discussing the “gay and bisexual lifestyles” part of the intention is to convince others that same-sex attraction is not natural but a chosen behavior and, by extension, that it need not be a foundation for equality. Ergo, though the highly unsophisticated marino possesses no such understanding, his comment was wholly and fundamentally homophobic.
Persevere..
Guy..
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AV Town Crier says...
I think marino was joking. But, just to be sure, I’m turning him in to the TSA and reporting him to the Dept. of Homeland Security. A few days a gitmo will teach him about sensitivity.
Happy 4th to ALL, if nothing more than some of you get the day off. Ass a reporter—i will be working.
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Cybertariat says...
Would it have been acceptable had he been “joking” about people of color, AVTC?
Anti-Arab racism and homophobia: The two forms of bigotry that remain largely acceptable.
Good evening..
Persevere..
Guy..
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marino says...
Haha…hypersensitivety. Joking about people of color. Everyone is a person of color. Get over it. You’ll feel better.
And stop using your bisexuality as a crutch. It isn’t one but you keep bringing it and homosexuality up here when noone else does.
Take a trip to Saudi Arabia and try being openly bi or gay there. Reason I bring this up is your mentioning of Anti-arab racism and homophobia.
Now list one incident of anti-Arab racism on this site. You can’t.
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roxi says...
Mr. Sensitivity is back, now that his computer is free of ‘bugs’. UAE loves no one but white boys, with lots of money – you buyin’?
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Cybertariat says...
The fact that it is actually the Archie Bunker-like marino and one or two other equally base bloggers that keep to raising the “issue” of Matt’s sexuality and that of mine should be enough to show that I do not use my bisexuality as a crutch (whatever it is that that means). For proof, we need to look no further than this very thread in which one of our “Archies” scribbled “Just wanna wish a happy 4th of July weekend to only all of you fine heterosexual folks out there but also to all of the [both the] ‘alternative sexual lifestyle’ folks” (as if Matt and I chose our sexulaities). To that point, this thread had nothing to do with any one person’s sexuality, but the vacuous marino simply could not resist.
So, yes, I did indeed bring up the subject of homosexuality, but it was within the general context of the hate-speech crime that was recently committed within the city of Lancaster rather than within the specific and hate-based context of any one person’s sexuality. So too is it the case that it was the quasi conservative Jack
Unger who initiated the discussion having to do with said hate-speech crime. I wouls have preferred to include my comments within Jack’s “Hate crime in Lancaseter against gays…” but the frenetic he had already moved on to the posting of a few other New Blogs, thereby necessitating the creation of a New Blog of my own.
Persevere..
Guy..
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AV Town Crier says...
Guy
With due respect:
I draw the line on hate especially if it can lead to violence. I think I was clear on that.
On the same token. I defend stand comedians (who some times cross the line) and political satirists (such as my self—who sometime cross the line) to mock any and everything.
I think, Guy, you can consider yourself an equal when you have been mocked.
Now, understand, I am only referring to this (let’s call it the gay movement or gay rights issue) from the political aspects. I think like any other movement it’s fair game.
I’m NOT talking (typing) about being picked on, ridiculed, or being bullied (etc.)I’m also talking about being mocked to the same degree that any other group is mocked. Not non-stop being picked on, or getting mocked more than your fair share. That’s equality. When it goes beyond just a little friendly (and respectful) ribbing—then I’m with you.
I would also be cognoscente that if something could lead to a physical attack (or any violence) or lead to any kind of confrontation—then it’s gone too far.
In humor/satire, there has to be a balance.Also consideration must be taken as to if the attack is being directed to a larger issue (fair game) or personally.
But,Guy, your point is noted.
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marino says...
If it wasn’t for our resident well written self admitted bisexual socialist communist, you would rarely hear about homosexuality, bisexuality, or heterosexuality here on this site.
I nore anyone here but you Guy, come here and brag about how many men and/or women they’ve bedded down.
Nothing wrong with that. I’m sure you expect a response to your comments. I have nothing in common with Archie Bunker.
I’m having a gay weekend. I hope everyone is.
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marino says...
Oh, and you mentioned anti-Arab racism. What anti-Arab racism are you talking about?
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marino says...
Sorry if I offended you, roxi. If you or anyone here have gay or bi tendencies, we’re only here to discuss and trade thoughts. I’ve met many fine upstanding homos. And some of you may not know that many of them are Conservatives.
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Cybertariat says...
Oh, for Christ’s sake, marino, google it! Google “anti-Arab racism.” Gain a measure of vulture “knowledge” with respect to that, too!
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“Conservatives are not necessarily stupid people, but most stupid people are conservatives.” —John Stewart Mills
Good evening..
Persevere..
Guy
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leonardpflemkin says...
Add Mormons and conservative Christians to the list of groups that are continually bashed. I wish everyone would just let everyone who is different from themselves be.
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roxi says...
Oh please, the “Christians” bring it on themselves – just women who wear short skirts instigate rape, right?
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Cybertariat says...
Dogmatic Christians are not “bashed” because of their beliefs, Leonard, they are “bashed” for what appears to be their need to control the personal lives of others.
Again, were reactionary Christians, which are representative of the vast majority of Christians, to keep their beliefs to themselves – were they to stop attempting to foist their presumed way of life onto those of us who are in no way interested in living their supposed way of life, then I for one would stop “bashing” them. In other words, no longer would I be faced with the need to defend myself against what are now very creepy and very powerful people. To wit, if you do not agree with homosexuality, then do not have sex with members if your own gender. Beyond that, it is absolutely none of your goddamned business. And if your religion tells you that marrying someone of your same sex is a bad thing, then by all means do not marry someone of your same sex. Beyond that, it is none of your goddamned business!
Persevere..
Guy..
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RealSteve says...
lp
So can I use your standard of behavior when Palin, Bachman and all the rest of the social conservatives seek to use the powers of the Federal government to legislate morality, their own personal version thereof, on the American people.?
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leonardpflemkin says...
Real Steve…what is my standard of behavior in this regard? I was merely indicating that to include among the groups being bashed were Christians and Mormons. You are free to vote or not vote for the policies of Palin, Bachmann or anyone else.
Guy, I agree with you re: adhering to one’s personal beliefs. I do not understand why some people force their beliefs on others. I have strong beliefs that I am willing to discuss and share but will not force them on others. I think there are a lot more of people of faith with this philosophy than otherwise. The “dogmatic” ones are not the vast majority; they just make headlines, much like Arabic/Muslim terrorists who strap bombs to themselves make headlines. Just as it is inaccurate and unfair to label all Arabic/Muslim people as terrorists, it is likewise to do so with Christians/Mormons/etc.
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roxi says...
People need to learn to mind their own business, and I think most do – but that doesn’t sell a 24/7 “Newz” cycle, does it? Pundits and nobodies are made into ‘starz’ overnight, either with stupid remarks, homophobic/hetrosexual/size-of-their-butt headlines or killing their young in a swimming pool.
Doesn’t seem like ANY part of society is exempt from bashing, including Pit Bulls, minorities, Jews, Elderly and anyone over 50.
We’ve ALL become minorities, the uber riche RULE!
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AV Town Crier says...
I agree, that those who run for high office and use it to preach their personal beliefs are just out and out assholes.
If you want to preach or be preached to, go to church (or a Lancaster City Council Meeting).
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marino says...
leanard says, “Add Mormons and conservative Christians to the list that are continually bashed.”
No shit. And the hypocrites on this site that refuse to believe that are simply that. Hypocrites.
Extremists in every group. Ofcourse extremists don’t exist on this site.
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roxi says...
Hypocrisy Alert!
Anti-Gay Activist Baptist Minister George Alan Rekers of red-state Miami, FL is busted with his “rent-A-boy” Male Escort at the airport.
Sen. Roy Ashburn®, Bakersfield, CA. On March 3, 2010 is arrested on suspicion of drunk driving while operating a State of California owned vehicle…. before 2 a.m.,with sources saying he was leaving a Sacramento gay nightclub, Faces, in the Lavender Hill neighborhood, with an unidentified male passenger in a state-owned Chevy Tahoe. …The arrest “launched nationwide speculation that the veteran lawmaker is gay and therefore a hypocrite for voting against gay-rights bills.” …during an interview on KERN radio, Ashburn stated that he is gay…
Homophobe pastor of Georgian megachurch faced allegations of gay sex with young boys Bishop Eddie Long, presiding pastor of the New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, had long term sexual relationships with young men, aged 17 and 18, from his megachurch, coercing them with money, jewelry, access to celebrities, and travel in order to have sex with him."
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
WHO’s being tortured here?!!
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Cybertariat says...
Yes, that is it, marino, ignore my perfectly valid point that, what appears to you to be “Chrisitan bashing” is really nothing more than defensive fortifications erected by people, such as myself, who do not quite “measure up” to dogmatic Christian standards and who are attacked by dogmatic Christians accordingly.
Have you, marino, ever asked yourself something to the effect of "Why is it that Guy never attacks Buddhism, “Bahaism,” Hinduism, Judaism, etc ? If so, the answer to that question is; because the adherents to those types of religions – gentle religions – do not attempt to impose their respective belief systems on others, nor do they shape laws and governmental policy to reflect those belief systems. So, once again, “were reactionary Christians…to keep their beliefs to themselves [just as, say, Buddhists and Jews do]…then I for one would stop ‘bashing’ them” – no longer would I as well as millions of other human beings have the need to defend ourselves against the unrelenting and organized onslaught of these Christian soldiers.
In my opinion, marino, you do not acknowledge the painfully obvious because you are just
arrogant enough to believe that all of us need adhere to your Christian beliefs, but that you are not about to admit to it.
The irony here is that, two-thousand years ago, Jesus comforted society’s outcasts. In those times, the outcasts were the prostitutes, the lepers, the tax collectors and the generally “unclean.” These people were bashed and often murdered in the name of “God,” yet Christ attempted to defend such individuals.
I believe that, in modern-times, Christanity largely concerns the worshipping of the messenger and the ignoring of the message. For who are today’s outcasts but lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders, the undocumented, the poor in general and others who – were he alive today – would be defended by Jesus Christ.
So although I would like to believe that Christianity concerns itself with the reaching out to society’s outcasts and accepting them – loving them. But, since perception tends toward reality, no longer does Christianity have anything to do with love, compassion and acceptance.
Ergo, marino, it is you and the balance of your two-faced Christian brethren who are the hypocrites.
Good evening..
Persevere..
Guy..
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marino says...
You pidgeon hole Christians, Guy. You’re smart enough to know that it’s extremists that are the problem. The average Christian doesn’t give a fuck who or what someone wants to screw. The fringe is what you are talking about. Most Christians don’t even talk about gays. They don’t care either way.
I must be a lousy Christian seeing that I totally believe in abortion. I believe you should only have a kid if you can afford one. If you can’t and don’t want to give it up, abort. So don’t blame religion on my replies to your bragging about the numbers of blowjobs and women you banged, because if you were 100% heterosexual and bragged about the number of women you hammered, I’d reply n the same fashion. I’ve known guys that would screw any women that would let them. I find them to be a little too easy.
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marino says...
Guy says, "Oh for Christ’s sake, marino Google it! Google “anti-Arab racism”.
I could also Google “anti-White/European racism”. I’m sure you get my point.
What’s your opinion on the Laker’s past playoff performance and what the Org. should do?
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Cybertariat says...
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love heterosexuals. It’s just that they need more supervision." —Lynn Lavner
Persevere..
Guy..
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AV Town Crier says...
Guy
LOL!
What’s worse about all this Christian hoopla is their hypocrisy. Not just the homophobia, but in just about everything.
I have studied Christianity and I can’t see how people fall for this. The history of the church is horrific. How can anybody join a group that was responsible for the inquisition?
They say it was just a few misguided few who were involved. But that is just BS. At least three Popes sanctioned the Dominican order to carry it out all throughout Europe. Talk about a sick inhumane policy. It made the Nazi’s look like saints.
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leonardpflemkin says...
I have to say that the Jesus that Guy as described, the one who offered comfort to the outcasts and poor, is the very Jesus I follow, as pitiful as my attempt to follow Him is.
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sikntired says...
The Dalai Lama adresses these issues in a non biased and non threatening way-http://dalailama.com/messages/religious-harmony plus he is very cool.
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Cybertariat says...
Antelope Valley Town Crier (AVTC): “The history of the [Christian] church is horrific? How can anybody join a group that was responsible for the inquisition?”
Obviously, very few people choose Christianity, for the majority, it is chosen for them by their parents whose parents chose it for them, and so on and so forth. Indeed, AVTC, were such a decision to be left to an eighteen-year-old in possession of a liberal arts education and who had never before been exposed to any sort of religious “thought,” would scoff at the very concept of Christianity, let alone choose to become a part of such absurdity. This is precisely the sort of reason that all forms of dogmatic religions are and always have been wholly dependent upon the early indoctrination of children and of the stifling of their ability to think critically.
AVTC: “They say it was just a misguided few who were involved [in the Inquisition], but that is just BS.”
Yes, “a misguided few” which marino would likely refer to as a fringe element of Christianity. Present-day incarnations of Christian inquisitionists, albeit far more subtle by necessity, are institutions the likes of the Heratige Foundation, Focus on the Family, Abiding Truth Ministires, American Family Association, Americans for Truth About Homosexuality, etc., as well as hundreds if not thousands of right-wing politicians who amplify these organization’s message by thwarting efforts toward equality for LGBT peoples and while encouraging violence and other antisocial behavior toward lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders.
So although it may well be true that “The average Christian doesn’t give a fuck who…someone wants to screw” (marino), it is also true that the vast majority of the tens of millions of church-going Baptists, Catholics, Luthrens, Pentecostals, etc., etc., do absolutely nothing that could be viewed as being supportive of LGBT peoples. And, as in all such examples, silence equals complicity.
Yesterday and by way of an e-mail, an acquaintance or mine said to me “In America, homosexuality is still against the social norms, and that makes it an immoral act. So until it is considered to be a moral act, then we Christians must oppose people who act in immoral ways.”
My response: "All right. But – to me – you are simply projecting your own Christian-based prejudices onto an easily manipulated social ideology that is neither definite or rigid. In my opinion, you are hiding behind “social norms” that are not really there. For what exactly is a Social Norm? Is it perhaps merely what you believe to be representative of normality, and thus project onto society in order to make it more suitable for you?
Since Jesus never married, and never did he have sex with women, have you considered the possibility that he was gay?"
Persevere..
Guy..
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Cagy Wolf says...
Mr. Marsh
Jesus was also believed to have had children and married Mary Madalena. Have you considered that due to the times where women did not have equal rights as do men that the reason Jesus surrounded himself by men were for that reason? And did you also consider that Jesus was not gay?
As far as complicity goes, why should anyone do so? By their silence or inactivity? You are reckless in your statements. May I suggest you listen to Lee Greenwood’s song “God Bless America”.
Most americans could care less what gays do, but many are sick of the gay agenda forcing its ideals on the rest of us. Schools now teach things I feel aren’t quite proper for the age group being taught. I personally believe gays should have the SAME rights as the rest of us. BUT they do not have the right to ram down our throats and our children’s thoats what they want. I used the example of the Boy Scouts of America, its their organization and if they the BSA want to exclude gays from being scout masters its their right to do so. Maybe Gays might want to consider forming the Gay Boy Scouts of America and leave the BSA alone, instead of forcing the BSA to spend millions fighting what to me seems to be a open and shut case.
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Cagy Wolf says...
And Mr. Marsh
Some of those marxist countries in africa and the middle east are openingly anti gay and in africa there is an outcry for gays to be put to the death. To single out christians is wrong and you forget that many christians are also supportive of the gay life style. I do not believe anyone has a right to teach the gay agenda to our children, let them grow up and decide for themselves what they want to be and to be taught.
Or are you suggesting that white power also be taught? Or how to be a good nazi. Or a good communist. Where do we draw the line? I say just let the usual subjects be taught and leave the majority of sex education be taught in the high school and jr. high school level. A little common sense is needed and less concern about gay rights.
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Cagy Wolf says...
Mr. Marsh
You are supposedly a smart self taught individual, but you seem very selective in what you have learned. You attack every american tradition, culture or values and for the life of me don’t understand your hatred of americans values. Gays today enjoy more tolerance and rights than it was like when I attended high school. You were gay in oklahoma in 1967 you lived in a hell, I know. I had three gays friends and they took a lot of shit daily by rednecks. Only in a few isolated cases are gays being attacked and killed. Sure maybe SS was wrong to say what he did in the music store, but I can understand. I stand behind some idiot who can’t make up his, her or its mind and I would be pissed also. Especially on aged and hurting legs, I don’t even take advantage of my disability and even go out of my way to leave a handicap parking alone and open. I do have a handicap parking permit, but I know how much parking is needed for those worse off than myself.
But to gays, I have mentioned privately to Matt and openingly here about what happened when I and my girlfriend went to the movies. Gays were acting up and scared Frances who as a hair dresser had many gay friends shitless. Nobody and I mean NOBODY has a right to get in my face or anyone’s else’s face. And to block my passage and France’s was inexcusible and stupid. Marsh I asked nicely to move out of my way, I didn’t say anything else. But I was sure subjected to the ravings and ranting of someone who as his ights just had to tell me. While I did not care for what this idiot and the crowd of fellow idiots had to say at the top of their lungs, I ignored it and just wanted to get some cheap tacos at Jack in the Crack. No Guy, I had to resort to force. The same I had to do with rednecks, wetbacks, ghang bangers and whoever the else who violated my “rights”. My greatest right, to be just left alone. And you know that is the reason I became so supportive and active fighting illegal immigration. I have taken the oath two times, once when I joined the army and again when I was elected to political office. I took the oath to defend this country and you Mr. Marsh, from enemies foreign and domestic. So that you say how awful america, christianity, capitalism etc etc is. I took that oath serious in 1969 and I took it serious when I took the oath again in 2005. Part of being a leader is recognizing when there is a problem and getting off your ASS and doing something about the problem.
And this has cost me dearly.
When I cannot walk the street, assemble peacefully in protest and be harassed with nothing done. Then something is really wrong in america, when I see our flag burned here in america by a group that would violate my beliefs or rights here illegally or anything else. Then america is in serious trouble. But then again I have been saying for some years now Mr. Marsh. I remember very well how some marxist (communists) tried to recruit me after seeing me at a Sit In protest. There are those that would destroy america at any cost and I believe you are part of that group. You complain and complain about america when you should be blessing and thanking america is a place you can flap your lips.
I remember in Palmdale where we were protesting illegal immigration, an illegal alien called the police to report use for protesting illegal immigration. You see Mr. Marsh, Mexico like many other countries wouldn’t allow its own citizens to protest but for illegal aliens waving the american flag in mexico. Never! You would be beatened, thrown in jail, likely abused in jail and take maybe two-five years before you got to court and then found guilty of violating Mexico immigration laws and flying a foreign flag.
You don’t how very lucky to live in a land like ours which you would tear up and replace it with what? Communism? Don’t make me laugh or actually to puke, history quite well what happens when communists take over.
No Mr. Marsh you should be thanking america and its constitution.
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AV Town Crier says...
Leo
I would agree, to the point that Jesus was a great teacher. he lived in a time when people needed to be taught. Nothing wrong with that.
Guy
Right on. I agree. Christianity has been foisted upon those by parents. Christianity has always been very aggressive in its methods. Luckily, my parents never foisted any religion on us. Just that there is a god and let it go at that. When I became an adult, I, in fact, did my own research and came to the conclusion that religion isn’t very tolerant.
I do believe that religion has the right to determine what they consider immoral. That can include homosexuality, smoking, drinking, adultery, etc. I support their right to do so because it’s NOT legally binding.
I also feel that most religions seem to be based on hate rather than tolerance. Who needs all that hate?
CW
Enjoy your breakfast.
You are correct in how communist countries behave. They are really NOT truly communist. They use it as a ways to a means. In other words, to take control and to control the population. As a form of government they are afflicted by the same greed that afflicts us capitalistic governments (democracies). Though most would consider America a democracy, we are NOT. We are a Republic. We have democratic policies as such, but we are NOT a democracy.
I do support your right, CW, do practice those beliefs that are near and dear to you. You too have the same right as those yo are opposed to. We have the right to disagree and tear each other a new asshole. This blog is a good example of the exchanging of ideas. But at the end of the day, I feel we should all be able to shake hands and leave as friends.
I say "as friends’ because we spend a lot of our time together on this blog and have gotten to know a little about each other.
So my friends, I will be joining CW in eating breakfast.
Persevere.
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mattkeltner says...
Something I have to remember when critiquing Christianity is that it is a comparatively young faith.
There is a part of Christianity that is maturing and accepts science, promotes tolerance and aims to be compassionate. For instance, look at the Quakers.
Among the more tame branches of Christianity are the old, mainline Protestant denominations of Episcopalians (where I am a member), the Lutherans, United Methodists, Presbyterians, United Church of Christ.
As for Catholicism, the Eastern Orthodox congregations are very enlightened (which I think has much to do with the Greek pursuit of knowledge)as are most Copts and Maronite Catholics.
The area of Christianity that has yet to reach social and political maturity are the fundamentalist churches: the Pentecostals, the Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, the Four Square denomination, the Strip Mall Baptists, etc.
The latter denominations tend to attract people of a lower economic status with the least amount of formal education, whereas, the former ones tend to attract more urbane people.
I think people who trend towards fundamentalist churches do so because they have something in their lives that causes them to be fearful. So, they flock to the fundamentalist church because they know intrinsically that a strict, totalitarian-like religion is needed to keep them in line.
The Mormons tend to fall somewhere between the two, culturally. For example, the Mormons I lived by in Valencia were nothing like many of the Mormons I knew in high school from Quartz Hill and West Lancaster. I met the Vice President of Fox Sports LA at El Pollo Loco in Stevenson Ranch and he and his family are Mormons but were very kind to me and my gay friend who worked for him. But then, he was also educated and worked in Hollywood.
So, when critiquing Christianity, it’s better to not be heavy-handed with the faith as a whole.
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AV Town Crier says...
Matt
Point well taken. Religion is a choice. A free choice and that I respect. I chose to have nothing to do with it. My choice.
I have always been a non-conformist. So I would never get along with any religion or political organization. in fact, I subscribe to Groucho Marx’s stand, “I will not belong to any organization that would have me as a member.”
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Cybertariat says...
Cagy Wolf: “Most Americans could care less what gays do, but many are sick of the ‘gay agenda’ forcing its ideals on the rest of us.”
Yes, most Americans could care less about what gay people do. But the purpose of the “gay agenda” – the gay rights movement – is simply to achieve the same rights that straight people currently enjoy. “Special rights for gay people” is nothing more than coded language put force by Neanderthals who are bent upon preventing gay people from achieving the same sort of rights that were achieved by black people during the 1960s. It goes something like this: Gay people: “We would like to be entitled to the right to marry one another just as straight people
are currently entitled to marry one another”; Neanderthals: “What? You want to be able to marry one another? No way! That would be a … uh, er … special right, and no one is entitled to special rights!” It is all but a smokescreen intended to “disguise” their bigotry.
Cagy Wolf: “I used the example of the Boy Scouts of America because it’s their organization and if they – the BSA – want to exclude gays from being scout masters then its their right to do so. Maybe gays should consider forming the Gay Boy Scouts of America and leave the BSA alone…” (sic)
Yes, that’s a great idea; that way, gay people would be “separate but ‘equal,’” huh, Larry. Never mind the fact that the BSA’s founder – one Robert Baden-Powell – was quite obviously gay himself.
Cagy Wolf: “Some of those [yawn] Marxist countries in Africa and the Middle East are openly anti-gay, and, in Africa, there is an outcry for gays go be put to death.”
Aside from the fact that there are no Marxist countries in either the African content or the Middle East, let alone the rest of the world, Marxism is decidedly non-homophobic just as it is non-xenophobic, non-racist, non-sexist and non-tribalistic because the establishment of a Marxist society would be wholly dependent upon a united working class rather than one divided by such meaninglessness as skin color, gender and sexuality.
So, yes, “[t]o single out Christians is wrong,” which is why I do no such thing. For know that many factions of its twin – Islam – is equally hostile toward lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered peoples. Yes, Larry, those African and Middle Eastern societies that you so ignorantly referred to as “Marxist countries” are in fact Muslim countries whose practices mirror many of the attitudes exhibited by fundamentalist Christians here in the US.
Finally, Larry, in light of the abundance of free time that you have at hand, what say that you enlist yourself into some sort of remedial English. “Why?,” you ask. Because, with all respect due you, Larry, deciphering, correcting and thus making your horrific “writings” readable is no less torturous than it is time-consuming.
Good evening..
Persevere..
Guy..
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Ray Cunneff says...
No, it’s “could not care less”. If you could care less, you do care more. The English language is going to hell, saying, in this case, the exact opposite of what you mean.
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Ray Cunneff says...
A few days ago, someone on this blog, who fancies himself a writer, confused “residence” with “residents”. A spell check won’t fix incorrect usage. Read Bill Safire’s “What’s The Good Word?”.
Our language is a precious thing. Don’t maul it.
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Cybertariat says...
To be sure, Ray, which is why I wrote “Yes, most Americans could care less what gays do.” But who, besides you, Matt and precious few others, will understand it?
Out!
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Cybertariat says...
“Content” rather than “continent.” Thereby proving that one must pay attention whilst blogging by way of an unteathered too smart phone. :-)
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Ray Cunneff says...
The point is, beyond mistakes in spelling and grammar that we all make, incorrect usage distorts what one is really trying to express. When meaning becomes muddled, one’s thoughts become easily misunderstood.
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Ray Cunneff says...
My Google spell check became disabled, for reasons I still don’t understand, months ago. Luckily, I’m a pretty good speller but I sometimes miss simple typos. I believe in the power of our language and cringe when I see mistakes distort meaning.
Words count. Words matter.
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Cagy Wolf says...
Its all a matter of semantics, could care less either way. I am not a english major, is that clear? There are many nations in africa that are communist in nature. And many middle eastern countries just admire marxism and its many failures. Cuba, China, USSR, North Korea etc etc etc all practice murder of its citizens and would rather buy weapons and beg for food from the USA when extortion doesn’t work. Bush was stupid in giving billions to N. Korea to stop its nuclear weapon programs and all that did was give Kim the money to rush his weapon program though. Actions speak louder than words and liars tend to cringe when confronted by the truth. Except those too far delusional and gone mentally to recognize the truth and their lies.
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Cagy Wolf says...
As for Baden being gay show the proof Mr. Marsh and its like I said you aren’t happy until every organiztion is infected with homosexuals and its behavior. Say I form a group Hetrosexuals of America and excluded Gays, what would happen. Gays would call the ACLU and demand “equal” rights to join a organization I started and formed. Lets say I formed it to be around my fellow hetrosexuals and didn’t want to hear or associate with gays? Care to comment on that example?
Or lets say I started a White Students Union Club at AVC. OK I do know what happens, a group of kids came to me about starting a WSU and I told them
1. You will be called racist even if you aren’t
2. You’ll have to let join whoever wants to
3. And blacks will want to join just to be idiots
Simply put while there is a Black Student Union Club at AVC there will never be a WSU on campus. This is what I mean by special interests and it isn’t fair.
Its like busing or other civil rights measures forced on americans whether they wanted it or not. I believe in freedom and equality but when your special interests infringes on my rights then I have a problem with your “rights”. Did the morons screaming in my face that night on Hollywood blvd. have a right to do so? Did they have a right to block my path? Were those idiots stupid to do what they were doing? They sure offended more then just me with their ranting and raving about Jesus being a homo etc etc etc but I was the only one that acted and did so knowing I was outnumbered about 35-40 to one. Like I have said I couldn’t care less what gays do, but they do not have more “rights” than the rest of us do. But it sure seems that way, I turn the channel if something offends me. There are those because they don’t agree say with Fox News since the liberals hate Fox more than anything would silence its voice. Thats the difference between liberals and individuals like myself. I welcome an opposing view where a liberal democrat would rather silence my voice and dismiss the first amendment as outdated.I watch more than Fox news and I saw what the so called democrats were saying about shutting those that disgreed with their agenda. Its like Obama when he kept the NRA from airing its advertising which showed what a liar Obama was on gun ownership and the main reason I opposed Obama as president. A man who wants to be president and he violates the first amendment before he is president? Nope a lot of you are living in a dream world and when you have no freedoms or rights left then you will remember what I have said over and over. Obama and the dirtbags like him whether in the democratic or GOP party would dragged us the people and the nation down just to have their agendas come true. Sad very sad and I am sorry to watch it happen.
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Cybertariat says...
In response to the typically idiotic “Duh, if black people can have Black Hostory Month, then why can’t we have White History Month?,” I should like to submit the following and closely associated quote:
“I get sick of listening to straight people complain about, ‘Well, hey, we don’t have a heterosexual-pride day, why do you need gay-pride day? I remember when I was a kid, I’d ask my mom: “Why don’t we have a kid’s day?” My mom would ways say, “Every day is kid’s day.” To all those heterosexuals that bitch about gay pride, I say the same thing: Every day is heterosexual-pride day! Can’t you people enjoy your banquet and not piss on those of us enjoying our crumbs over here in the corner?" —Rob Nash
Persevere..
Guy..
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AV Town Crier says...
CW
It was tough to muddle through all your post. But I agree to the point that you should not have been mobbed or have your path block or subjected to other views in a public place not designated as such.
People have rights only to the degree that they DON’T infringe on somebody’s else’s rights.
Guy
You’re point is correct. That’s the reason for Black History Month, Gay Pride Month, etc. It was done to make up for discrimination of the past. Most minority classes have this.
Again, if CW or anybody else doesn’t wish to participate, that, too is their right.
People have the right to celebrate their culture, religious, political beliefs, etc. They don’t have the right to shove down our throats. Participation is voluntary.
Sadly, a lot of people want to shove their shit in our faces against our will. A good example of this is people blasting their choice of music from their cars so loud that you can hear it a mile away! Of carrying around ‘boom boxes’ (do they still do that anymore?) blasting their music so loud as to be a disruption.
People of all stripes can be (and are) disrespectful of others. To me, this hurts their cause rather than help. I would be more interested if they did it in a way that shows respect. It’s hard to respect someone when they show no respect to you.
That respect would be to respect someone else’s right to NOT be interested in what you have to say. It’s just a common courtesy—something that seems to be lacking these days. That says more about humankind than anything.
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SaintPrick says...
Gay-pride parades are part of the problem for gay people earning acceptance in America. Look at the way these people dress, as if to say, “look at me in my assless leather chaps! Don’t you just want to invite me over for dinner with the family and be my best friend?”
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mattkeltner says...
I have been to one single “gay pride” parade in Palm Springs back in 2003 and have no desire – whatsoever – to go to another one, Thank You very much!
It’s not for me and you would be surprised at just how many people “like me” agree with me.
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AV Town Crier says...
Matt
Thanks for that. A little common sense can go a long way. Plus, you certainly put the kibosh on stereo-typing.
On the same token, I don’t like the Rose parade and wouldn’t go nor watch it on TV.
But, like everything, it’s all a matter of choice. The operative word here is Choice. Nobody likes things shoved down our throats.
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Cybertariat says...
Personally, I would no more attend a gay pride parade than I would attend a Christmas parade. But the fact of the matter is that homophobic America would be no more accepting of LGBT peoples were certain gay pride parade participants to sport suit and ties rather than leather chaps. Therefore, the old saw “Oh! Oh, these gay people are shoving their godless lifestyles down our throats with these gay pride parades” is code for “All gay people should stay in the closet just like they did one-hundred years ago.” After all, all gay pride parades are legally sanctioned and no heterosexual has ever been forced to attend one.
Look at it this way: I have absolutely no use for country “music” nor for the majority of country “music” devotees who I find to be mindless rednecks; predominantly given to racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, militarism and every other social pathology under the sun. But, although I certainly do view country “music” as being the very embodiment of the aforementioned social pathologies, I do not see Country Music Television, country music radio stations or country western bars as being operated by “rednecks” resolute on shoving their lifestyle down my throat (pun intended).
So, yeah, exposing our homophobe’s “shoving it down our throats” nonsense for being just exactly what it is – thinly veiled bigotry – is much easier than easy.
Good evening..
Persevere..
Guy..
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Cybertariat says...
Once again, Rob Nash…
“I get sick of listening to straight people complain about, ‘Well, hey, we don’t have heterosexual-pride day, why should you need a gay-pride day?’ I remember when I was a kid, I’d ask my mom: ‘Why don’t we have a kid’s day?’ My mom would say, ‘Every day is kid’s day.’ To all those heterosexuals that bitch about gay pride, I say the same thing: Every day is heterosexual-pride day! Can’t you people enjoy your banquet and not piss on those of us enjoying our crumbs over here in the corner?”
Out!
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Ray Cunneff says...
Well, I attended a couple of gay pride parades and had a “fabulous” time. The best was the West Hollywood Halloween festivities. What a blast! (If gay guys find you hot, you must be doing something right.)
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Ray Cunneff says...
I should add: Some of our closest friends have been gay. They always laughed that Jeanne and I were “breeders”. But they were always accepting of our “alternative” lifestyle.
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Ray Cunneff says...
In my experience, most homophobic people were afraid of their own sexuality.
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mattkeltner says...
Ray,
I’ve been to the Halloween Carnival in WeHo too, but I never really thought of it as a “pride” thing? Yes, very gay, but no politics (usually). The costumes are a blast as are the personalities behind them! Halloween in WeHo is like Mardi Gras in NOLA — everyone should do it at least once in their lives!
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mattkeltner says...
Guy,
I like country music and I’m not that far to the right. LOL!
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Cybertariat says...
All right, bro. But are you a country music devotee?
Persevere..
Guy..
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Cybertariat says...
Matt: “The costumes are a blast as are the personalities behind them!”
Robin Tyler: "If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered.
Good day..
Persevere..
Guy..
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roxi says...
Robin Tyler: "If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered.
LOL!
Gay or ‘straight’, Michelangelo was an amazing artist. His preferences didn’t seem to matter to the Medici, which proves that the Renaissance was a more enlightened era than the dark ages we live in now.
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Cagy Wolf says...
Yes, its a dark age ruled by misconceptions and run by politicians who have been bought and paid for by special interest groups in that you are right Roxi. We have foreign citizens sucking up resources meant to help americans while working under the table and protesting the very country that has given them so much. They have taken jobs from americans who also want to share in the american dream but denied because of stupid and foolish politicians who only care about the votes to get elected. Very short sighted and why america is on its knees.
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Cagy Wolf says...
Whether the person who does your taxes or not is your business. I am not against gay rights or gays, what I am against is discrimination and selective enforcement of the laws of this land. I am also against groups that demand their rights while ignoring mine. And frankly I should have gotten involved and spoke out years ago before I did. I knew what was going on and I saw first hand how illegal aliens took american jobs and attacked what few amricans were working at the same place. I also saw how an illegal aliens driving drunk killed one of three brothers and crippled the other two for life. I should have spoke up then and part of the reason I didn’t because I know how those that speak up are attacked and harassed if they do.
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marino says...
I think Cybertariat called Matt a redneck for listening to country music.
And so what if they’re a devotee? Tolerance, man! You ask for it.
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Cybertariat says...
To be sure, roxi. To be sure! Then again, America has always been in its own sort of Dark Ages.
“Everybody’s journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many Americans consider it a disease says more about them than it does about homosexuality.” —James Baldwin
Persevere..
Guy..
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AV Town Crier says...
Guy
I think you nailed it—America is in its own dark ages. Sadly, that’s where we’ve been and that’s where we continue to be and that looks like our future.
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Cybertariat says...
Yes, AVTC, to study America’s hidden hidtotry – that which we are not supposed to know of – is to know that America has forever endeavored to subjugate foreign peoples and their lands. In fact, the US is actually a typically hediuos empire that now threatens the continued existence of all forms of life on this planet. Ergo, America’s total and complete collapse would be quite beneficial to both humankind and planet earth itself.
Persevere..
Guy..
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marino says...
What country would you be moving to, Cybertariat?
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AV Town Crier says...
Guy
ever since we wuz corrupted by the international banking cabal. The fatal blow came on Dec. 23 1913, the day of the Federal Reserve Act.
Marino
Like Guy—I too criticize America. It’s called freedom of speech. Just because we find fault with our system, doesn’t mean we want to live anywhere else. We just want to improve what we have. Personally, I just want our government (Legislative, judicial and the executive branches to follow the ideals of the US Constitution!
Marino—I don’t like your attitude. You’re on report!
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marino says...
Occasionally everyone has gripes with Uncle Sam’s Admin and should speak out, AVTC.
Freedom of speach allows me to dissagree with those on this site. I know what you want and I know what Cybertariat wants.
And you love my attitude.
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AV Town Crier says...
Marino
LOL.
This is true. That’s what makes this site interesting. I like the exchange of good ideas. i just don’t like when those good ideas are punctuated with hate.
But, alas, hate, too, is a protected form of freedom of speech (as long as you don’t act on it.)
I know, Marino, that you wouldn’t get violent and I respect your view point as well. But, you’re still on report. You will turn in a 250 word essay.
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leonardpflemkin says...
Well, at least the evil and wicked United States was able to stop Hitler and keep the French wine and German beer flowing. Geez…subjucating foreign peoples in their land? That’s been going on since the beginning of recorded history! Humanity has a sick and twisted history. The depravity didn’t start in 1776. America is not perfect, but it didn’t require foreign troops or forces to end slavery, get the right to vote for all adults, pass civil rights legislation, etc. Still more improvements to come, for sure, but I’m not throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is an amazing country. I wish my deceased grandmother, who came from the “old country” were here to respond to this.
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AV Town Crier says...
Marino:
Lol. Your plea is accepted.
You’re right Marino about the commie-pinko rat-finks being an issue since you wuz a kid. I don’t khow how old you are—I’m 61 and remember McCarthyism. While tailgunner Joe may have been right—his methods were very scary. Then add J. Edgar Hoover to the mix and I’m very concerned about our Constitutional rights and those who subvert them in the name of America.
While I don’t agree with Guy on the issue of Marxism, I support the discussion. There has always been a debate in this country (since day 1) between democracy, capitalism and communism.
I thank Guy for keeping the debate going. We need to keep our eyes open to what’s going on and call out those who endanger our civil liberties (no matter what stripe).
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mattkeltner says...
Guy, you asked if I were a Country Music “devotee”?
To me, that’s sort of an ambiguous term.
Do I watch CMT 24/7? – No.
…but I do occasionally drift from country music, to classic rock, to alternative rock.
The only “gay music” (lol) I have taken a liking to was industrial sound and some trance.
I was raised mainly by my mom and my grandparents (her mom and dad) who are from Colorado and Nebraska, respectively. So, country music is, in a way, in the blood.
In fact, my mom’s dad is the only Jewish-German farmer I have ever heard of (most become engineers or something)…He used to play Johnny Cash and Patsy Cline LPs all of the time before bed.
When I “came out” in my teens, my mom’s parents were the first set of grandparents to say “hey, no big deal. We already sort of knew”.
Now, my dad’s family is another story! With them it was (and still is) a battle. And, they were all born in L.A. Go figure! Strange, isn’t it?
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mattkeltner says...
Leonard responding to Guy: I’m not throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is an amazing country. I wish my deceased grandmother, who came from the “old country” were here to respond to this.
I could be wrong, but something I have noticed about Guy is that he is well-read and tends to lean toward the version of history as espoused by Howard Zinn – the famous author of “A People’s History of the United States”, which is very leftist look at American history. When Zinn wrote “A People’s History…” he did it in the lingering spirit of the 1960s. While Zinn is a brilliant political scientist and a great writer, his prism through which he is critiquing the U.S. is tainted.
As Leonard or someone else on this blog pointed out earlier, barborous acts have been a part of every single society throughout history, since the beginning of time. Sociology, anthropology and archeology go into great depths to demonstrate these facts.
I was recently shocked to find out that there once existed a “White Slave Trade” where white Slavic people in Eastern Europe (mostly women and young boys) were captured by Islamic pirates from around the Mediterranean and brought to Africa where they were sold into slavery, some of the women became part of harems in North Africa and the boys were forced to renounce their Orthodox Christianity to accept Islam. The scale at which the Slavic slave trade existed was on par with the African slave trade we have all heard of. In fact, the term “Slav” to denote Eastern European peoples itself originated at this point in history.
The problem is, things like this are not talked about as part of the mainstream history curriculum and therefor also remain out of the public knowledge base.
So, if you read Zinn, keep him in context, but also not there is nothing particularly “revolutionary” about him or “A People’s History…”. It is a critical, one-sided view of a tiny slice of history focused on one country and one continent.
Always remember that context is everything!
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marino says...
Nowhere near a moderate’s point of view was “A People’s History….”
On the contrary, he was a socialist and hater of our system and admits he often attended Communist front meetings.
He was one of those clowns that focused only on the negative to make it appear that there wasn’t much good going on. A slimmer soft spoken Michael Moore type.
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leonardpflemkin says...
@ Matt…“context is everything…” No truer words have ever been spoken. Right on! Fundamentalists should heed them.
…and for the record, I enjoy the dialogue with Guy. I might not agree, but I enjoy reading different points of view, and Guy, you it with great passion and with articulocity. (That is not a word, but it i)s now!
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Cybertariat says...
My comment that “…America’s total and complete collapse would be quite beneficial to both humankind and planet earth itself” was shaped within the context of America being an empire and, accordingly, of its lose of the ability to be an empire. So marino’s question “What country would you be moving to, Cybertariat?” was incongruous with my statement because it – my statement – was meant to suggest that American society would be vastly improved in the wake of this empire’s collapse. Consider for a moment that Great Britian evolved into a far more equitable society following the collapse of its empire. The social reforms that unfolded within British society (post collapse) and that have vastly improved the lives of its citizenry would not have been possible whilst its “powers that be” were busy colonizing and thus enslaving much of the rest of this world. Clearly, as Britian’s political state began to behave globally in a far more genteel fashion (albeit not all that willingly), so too did it adopt a concomitant attitude toward its own people.
Therefore, what I am saying is that, domestically speaking, the collapse of the American empire would at the very least bring about hope for a better America.
leonardpflemkin: “Geez, subjugating foreign peoples in their lands? That’s been going on since the beginning of recorded history.”
Yes, as my having mentioned the British Empire, not to mention the Roman Empires and still others, human beings have been exploiting other human beings as well as earth’s resources since patriarchy deposed matriarchy. Yet, never before has an empire hid behind democratic principles while carrying out literally hundreds of ghastly, imperialist wars of aggression under the auspices of promoting “freedom.” Never before has an imperialist power trafficked in such obtrusive hypocrisy.
As for the United States having stopped Hitler/Nazi Germany, yes, the US did help to stop Nazi Germany (a competing capitalist society), but it did not stop fascism simply because it was in no way interested in stopping fascism. In fact, the US government went on to support and to often install fascist governments throughout the world. From the Argentine and Chilean juntas of the 1970s which kept an extremely high rate of profits flowing to the likes of the Ford Motor Company, Anaconda Copper, and IT&T; to the Hitler-worshipping and School-of-the-America’s trained Roberto D’Aubuisson in El Salvador; to the murderous and utterly corrupt Mobuto Sese Seko in the former Zaire, the American political state has been slaughtering Third World peoples on behalf of the US capitalist class since AR least the establishment of the Monroe Doctrine and while claiming to be spreading “freedom and democracy.” It is as sickening as what it is sanctimonious, and it does serve the socioeconomic interests of the American working class which is now being oppressed by these very same forces.
Matt: “I could be wrong, but something I have noticed about Guy is that he is well-read and tends to lean toward the version of history as espoused by Howard Zinn – the famous author of ‘A People’s History of the United States,’ which is a very leftist look at American history. When Zinn wrote ‘A People’s History…’ he did it within the lingering spirit of the 1960s. While Zinn was a brilliant political scientist [actually, a radical historian, playwright and social activist], and a great writer, his prism through which he critiqued the U.S. was tainted…So, if you read Zinn, keep him in context, but also note that there is nothing particularly ‘revolutionary’ about him or ‘A People’s History…’ It is a critical, one-sided view of a tiny slice of history focused on one country and one continent.”
Yes, just as sociopolitical conservatives tend toward a mainstream/corporate telling of American history, I, as a Marxist-DeLeonist, do indeed lean toward a working-class – a People’s
account of American history. In fact, I was thinking of "A People’s History of the United States; 1492-Present (Harper Collins, 1980, 729pgs.) while “penning” my post of 07/09/11 – “5:19 PM,” and I would have mentioned that publication had I not been on a ten-minute break from my work.
With all due respect, I do not see how the prism through which Howard Zinn presented his telling of American history could have been any more vitiated than that of mainstream historians. Much of what is written within A People’s History of the Unifed States…" is simply that which was gleaned by way the Congressional Record – that which capitalist culture’s historians most often and conveniently omit from their tellings of our history, which – to me – is representative of the very pinnacle of that which has been conferred through tainted prisms.
For example: Within the twelfth chapter of A People’s History…" (“The Empire and the People”) Howard Zinn wrote: “…the American armed forces had made forays overseas. A State Department list, ‘Instances of the Use of the United States Armed Forces Abroad 1798-1945’ (presented by Secretary of State Dean Rusk to a Senate committee in 1962 to cite precedents for the use of armed force against Cuba), shows 103 interventions in the affairs of other countries between 1798 and 1895. A sampling of the list, with the exact description given by the State Department: …” (Zinn went on to list ten instances in which US military forces were employed throughout the world during that time frame, including “1854 – Nicaragua – San Juan del Norte (Greytown was destroyed [killing hundreds of men, women and children] to avenge an insult to the American Minister to Nicaragua).” (Pages 290-291 of the book’s second edition, published 1995. All emphasis not in original.)
In the book’s opening chapter (“Columbus, the Indians, and Human Progress”), Howard Zinn quotes Christopher Columbus as having written within his journal “‘Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all of the slaves that can be sold.’” (Page 4 of the second edition.) Zinn goes on to describe, much of it in Columbus’ own words, how Christopher Columbus and his men committed genocide against the Arawak Indians who, until then, lived on the island that is now shared by Haiti and the Dominican Republic for these indigenous people’s “failure” to secure gold for the Columbus (the island had no gold).
So it is not as though Howard Zinn nor any other People’s historian has had to invent stories that serve to reveal the whole truth vis-a-vis American history. They simply choose to include what mainstream historians know to exist but who choose to dutifully preclude in their treatments of America’s sanitized version of history (History: “His-Story”).
As for Matt’s statement that “‘A People’s History…’ is a critical, one-sided view of a tiny slice of history…” yes, it most certainly and proudly is a critical analysis of mainstream America’s version of American society – one penned in the very spirit of critical thought (that “old” thing). And, yes, it is one-sided in the sense that it is a critical analysis of the “disinfected” versions of American history. The rather (in truth) obscure Howard Zinn did not give “airtime” to the views of his infinitely more well-known counterparts any more than they gave airtime to his views. So I am wondering as to whether or not Matt might find, say, mass-produced and distributed school textbooks which always fail to include Columbus’ journals, the vast majority of US military interventions and so very much more as being one-sided?
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Finally, Matt, not surprisingly, your taste in music may be described as being nothing short of eclectic. Yours is that which can not be likened to the taste in music of the average country music devotee who, by definition, listens to country music to the exclusion or to the near exclusion of all other forms of music. You are anything but the sort of individual that I had in mind while writing “I have absolutely no use for country ‘music’ nor for the majority of country ‘music’ devotees whom I find to be [typically] mindless rednecks; predominantly given to racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, militarism and every other social pathology under the sun,” and you know this to be so, bro. :-)
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Finally, marino, given my having written “…although I certainly do view country ‘music’ as being the very embodiment of the aforementioned social pathologies, I do not see Country Music Television, country radio stations or country western bars as being operated by ‘rednecks’ resolute on shoving their lifestyle down my throat,” it is difficult to imagine how you could have deduced my being intolerant of such things.
Wait a minute! No, that isn’t difficult to imagine. It isn’t difficult to imagine at all. So I take that back.
Good evening..
Persevere..
Guy..
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marino says...
I find it impossible to believe that you havn’t enjoyed a good country music tune, Cybertariat.
“I have absolutely no use for country “music”…"
I’m not buyin it.
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Cybertariat says...
But that is just it, marino; in my opinion, there exists no such thing as “a good country tune.” For much like disco “music” which I have (always) found to be “hollow” and thus devoid of social significance, country music’s god-and-patriotism-centered appeal, not to mention its ever-present and dorky twang, is that which causes my skin to crawl. I absolutely detest it.
A shining example of socially significant lyrics as well as very sophisticated music:
“…Big bang took and shook the world
Shot down the rising sun
The end was begun it would hit everyone
When the chain reaction was done
The big shots try to hold it back
Fools try to wish it away
The hopeful depend on a world without end
Whatever the hopeless may say..” —Rush, Manhattan Project, Power Windows, Mercury Records, 1985, lyrics by Neil Peart, music by Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson, and Neil Peart.
Persevere..
Guy..
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Cybertariat says...
While returning to this tread’s roots, we find that…
“While many minority groups are the target of prejudice and discrimination in our society, few persons face this hostility without the support and acceptance of their own families as do many gay, lesbian and bisexual youth. —Virginia Uribe and Karen Harbeck.
Persevere..
Guy..
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Cybertariat says...
More of that which is meaningful:
“…Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We’re finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming
Four dead in Ohio
Four dead in Ohio
Four dead in Ohio…”
Restin peace: Jeffery Miller, Allison Krause, Sandra Scheuer, and William Schroeder
Persevere..
Guy..
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avbornbred says...
There are a lot of ignorant people who do not understand what “TOLERANCE” is all about. The lame brains who consider using violence against people of different life style choices need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Again, that is what I have said before. America in the greatest country on earth because we have laws so that people who violate them will be prosecuted.
Again, a majority of Gay people are not victimized violently as the cases cited in the above postings. Most Gay people live a free and happy life here in the USA.
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AV Town Crier says...
Guy
Good post.
I agree with you on country music for the most part. I do like Johnny Cash and Tammy Wynette (In the late 60’s) and Judy Collins.
Most of country today is more like 60’s rock (Byrds, Buffalo Springfield, Leaves,America) etc.
I used to hate disco (Still hate the Bee gees) but I kinda started liking some of it (Yes, I like the Village People—I hope that doesn’t mean I’m turning gay in my old age).
Generally I like classsic rock, oldies, doo wop and soul. I like classical like Stravinski, Bartok, Prokeiv, etc. I like Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis, Jr, and Tom Jones.
I like Neil young (Ohio is the song you quoted at the end).
I tend to agree with the over all tone of your post. History that was taught to us in school was for the most part—just propaganda.
It was the typical one-sided history written from the perspective of the winning side. Thus making it one sided.
I have spent the better part of the last 40 years researching a more realistic history of man. In my quest for the truth—i have found out the ugly truth behind Christianity and how man-kind developed.
In know SS and the other Christians would be shocked at the history of their religion. i won’t dwell on that here as it’s not the time nor place.
Mankind have been manipulated from the get-go.
This country was NOT formed by Christians! It was formed by and for Masons. Up and until the mid 1800’s there were more Masonic temples than churches. Due to a murder and some other incidents involving the Masons, they fell out of favor with the general public. The Christian churches took full advantage of this. But again, another long story.
So in a long-winded conclusion, I think you are basically correct Guy, though I don’t agree totally.(Mainly because I haven’t read some of the books you mentioned—so I can’t comment) and because I don’t tend to lean to the left.
At the end of the day—we wuz lied to and American history the way it’s taught in our school is nothing more than propaganda as told by the winning side. it’s totally devoid of culture and understanding (nor compassion) for humanity)
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Cybertariat says...
SaintPrick/John Wells: “…Desean Jackson…was victimized [victimized?] by the overly PC crowd. He was pressured into apologizing for referring to a caller on a talk radio program as a ‘gay ass faggot.’ And, of course, since it was the politically correct thing to do and the best way to keep one’s image as untarnished as possible after having offended the overly-offended, he gave the apology…Just once, I would love to see somebody who is being pressured by the overly-offended, keep their integrity and not give the overly-offended what they want.”
So tell me, John, were those who – during the 1960s – challenged the indiscriminate and then very common employment of the term “nigger” a part of this “overly-offended PC crowd”? Were those who then used such vulgarity “victimized” by some sort of “overly-offended PC crowd”? Should racists “keep their integrity and not give the ‘overly-offended’ [”PC crowd"] what it wants"?
You were correct about one thing though, John; that Desean Jackson (a black man) is, like you, a homophobe who is seemingly unable to contain his hatred.
I know that our “good” Christian homophobes could not possibly care any less, but bigotry happens to be the doorway to harassment, discrimination and, eventually, violence. It is the very psychological basis for physically harmful acts. Ergo, devoid of the precondition of bigotry, there would not be any bigotry-motivated violent crimes committed against people of color, Jews, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgenders and others. To put it another way, if we can embarrass bigots into keeping their bigotry to themselves, then we will be able to prevent much of the bigotry that often turns into violent acts.
Good evening..
Persevere..
Guy..
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Cybertariat says...
“I believe that one day the world will judge the witch hunt against homosexuals just as harshly as it judges the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust.” —Mae West
Out!
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SaintPrick says...
Should racists “keep their integrity and not give the ‘overly-offended’ [”PC crowd”] what it wants"?
I believe everyone should stand up for their beliefs, and not back down because of people like you, who are obsessed with the idea that if you whine loud enough, the world will suddenly be full of fairness. A great time for all!
“You were correct about one thing though, John; that Desean Jackson (a black man) is, like you, a homophobe.”
I never once called Jackson a homophobe in my post. He was simply using what is a common synonym (gay ass faggot) for a douchebag in American society.
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SaintPrick says...
The persecution that homosexuals have endured in America, when compared side by side with that of blacks in America, is quite pseudo. But you guys always feel the need to go there. How many blacks were lynched, off the record in the past and nobody gave a shit. You actually have the audacity to compare your plight to that of the Jews? Really?
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Ray Cunneff says...
From Jason Linkins:
That “Family Leader” pledge may have won the enthusiastic endorsement of Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum, but former New Mexico Governor and long-shot presidential hopeful Gary Johnson is having an equally enthusiastic reaction in the opposite direction.
On the Johnson campaign’s “Truth For Change” blog, Johnson calls the pledge “offensive and unrepublican,” an “[attempt] to prevent and eliminate personal freedom,” and finally, the “type of rhetoric” that “gives Republicans a bad name”:
Government should not be involved in the bedrooms of consenting adults. I have always been a strong advocate of liberty and freedom from unnecessary government intervention into our lives. The freedoms that our forefathers fought for in this country are sacred and must be preserved. The Republican Party cannot be sidetracked into discussing these morally judgmental issues — such a discussion is simply wrongheaded. We need to maintain our position as the party of efficient government management and the watchdogs of the “public’s pocket book.”
This “pledge” is nothing short of a promise to discriminate against everyone who makes a personal choice that doesn’t fit into a particular definition of “virtue.”
“It’s stuff like this that sometimes makes me wonder if anyone will ever make clear the distinction between “Tea Partiers” and “libertarians.”
Gary Johnson
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roxi says...
“It’s stuff like this that sometimes makes me wonder if anyone will ever make clear the distinction between “Tea Partiers” and “libertarians.”
Maybe because they’re one in the same?
The “Family Leader” pledge that both Bachmann and ‘T-Paw’ Palenty signed recently also included a statement about how ‘children of slaves were better off during slavery because they had 2 parents’ looking out for them, as opposed to today’s “Obama” administration.
Pawlenty opposes same-sex marriage and civil unions. He would like to reinstate “Don’t ask, don’t tell” should he become president.
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Ray Cunneff says...
I should add that I’m not advocating for Gary Johnson. (I never heard of him until yesterday.) But it’s refreshing to see a GOP candidate speak on behalf of individual liberty.
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Ray Cunneff says...
The social conservatives apparently see no contradiction between calling for smaller, less intrusive government then, in the next breath, demanding government at its biggest and most intrusive when it comes to “values” issues.
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AV Town Crier says...
Ray.
I agree. I wish more of the main stream politicians would be more moderate on our liberties and focus on the issues that affect us all. Smoking weed, having sex with a same sex partner, making a choice on what birth control (if any) to use is not important. There are bigger fish to fry. That’s what should be focused on.
How many fucking wars are we involved in right now. Hello! Let’s try and bring the kids home!
Let’s get the economy fixed. Let’s bring the jobs back home.
That’s what I want my political leaders to discuss.
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Ray Cunneff says...
It goes beyond mere hypocrisy when politicians invoke the “state’s rights” argument when it supports their beliefs, then demand a (federal) Constitutional Amendment when state’s decisions run counter to their beliefs.
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leonardpflemkin says...
I do not see how anyone who calls themselves a Christian would support, endorse or advocate a “kill all gays” mentality. It certainly is not compatible with any Christian though I have ever encountered or embraced. It certainly does not pass the “love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself” test.
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