Search


www.intheav.com
Web

Blog Viewer

The red corner

Monday, May 30 2011 - 04:44 PM
Open borders and free markets
In response to my statement that “I believe that it is I who remains this forum’s only advocate of open borders,” avbornbred asked “Can you tell me what the benefits [would be] of having open borders?”
First of all, my support of open borders – of their being no borders at all – is not something that stands within the framework of capitalist society, but rather within that of a futuristic socialist commonwealth. Yes, as I alluded to through my having listed Albert Einstein’s famous The splitting of the atom has changed everything save for our mode of thinking…as a result we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe, the now outmoded notion of sovereign states is both artificial and dangerous. But, since capitalism still exists, the notion of the state is not outmoded. In other words, were borders to be deleted anytime soon, it would surely and quickly lead to socioeconomic disaster. The irony here, I think, is that, if open borders were to come to fruition within the existing economic order, it would come about by way of the political or plutocratic state rather than the demands of socialists because the US capitalist class would then be able to use unchecked immigration as a tool of socioeconomic terrorism against workers just as it does now to one degree or another. (That, however, is not to say that the ever-present downward pressure upon wages would not endure were it not for undocumented immigration for it would so endure – for the downward spiral of workers’ wages is an inherent and inescapable contradiction of the capitalist system that is in no way dependent upon any one factor, including undocumented immigration. It is only to say that undocumented immigration and even documented immigration tend to exacerbate the downward pressure upon wages.)
I believe that as it now stands, the American plutocracy largely enforces current immigration laws ostensibly for the benefit of its citizenry but, in actuality, for the benefit of capital and therefore the capitalist class. Yet that could change very rapidly given the capitalist class’ capricious economic “needs.”
Additionally, although some capitalist societies are in possession of the room with which to expand their populations and workforces, others do not. Great Britain, for instance, happens to be dangerously overpopulated as are the Netherlands, Japan and Italy. Where this condition exists, the respective political states are saddled with a prevailing duty to deter further overpopulation in the name of their citizenry’s but in real service to economic stability and thus to the benefit of their respective capitalist classes.
So, no, this Marxian socialist does not suppport the opening or borders while capitalism continues on. Doing so, to answer avbornbred’s question, would benefit no one outside of the capitalist class and its hangers-on. Nonetheless, it would do us good to recall Albert Einstein’s statement from time to time in order to remind ourselves that time is indeed of the essence.
Now of course none of this precludes our helping workers in other countries, such as Mexico, who are being forced into mass emigration due to antisocial trade agreements the likes of NAFTA and CAFTA. Putting pressure on politicians to rescind those horribly one-sided agreements would go a long way toward both stemming the flow of undocumented immigration and improvIng the lives of American workers. Beyond that, one thing is for certain; that all of the demands for more stringent border enforcement, all of the Minutemen-like protest rallies, and all of the vigilante border patrols will do little to so much as stem the flow of undocumented immigration simply because desperate human beings will always find ways of doing desperate things.
As a Marxian socialist, I will say that, if we workers do not put an end to capitalism and all of its social relations, including nationalism, everywhere, the chances of complete social breakdown coupled with the growing possibility of a global nuclear holocaust are great.
In his book Daniel De Leon: Internationalist (New York Labor News, 1944), the late Arnold Petersen (a past national secretary of the Socialist Labor Party) wrote: Capitalism cannot survive as we understand the term. What will survive (on a worldwide scale) will consolidate itself as an international economic imperialism; and this we know also: In such a world the workers will continue as industrial serfs, their social status further degraded, their individual liberties further restricted, and their hope of early emancipation from economic serfdom, from wage slavery, deferred to an uncertain future – the distance of which none would be able to foretell. Yes, Arnold Perersen wrote that in 1944, before the beginning of America’s so-called halcyon days of the 1940s and 1950s, but how thoroughly modern-sounding it is, no?

*

Within AV Town Crier’s thread entitled L.A. Times article, PKShaw wrote: The market provides its own moratorium; builders respond to market demand. In response, Matt Keltner wrote: Yeah, the ‘free market’ also turned the Antelope Valley into the Section 8 capitol of Southern California…Section 8 people wouldn’t have come to the Antelope Valley in the numbers they did had their not been ample housing. That ample housing was driven by greedy landowners and power brokers here that were more concerned about fattening their bank accounts than about the overall health and social stability of the local community. Is it just a coincidence that most of them no longer live where they made their money? That’s the ‘free market’ for you! Make money without accountability.

Quite true, Matt. For the free market – the freedom of a tiny minority of individuals to ride roughshod over the social majority – has demonstrated its propensity for failing the social majority time and time again. Whether it be the robber barons of the late nineteenth century, America’s copious number of economic recessions and depressions, the 1980’s Savings and Loan disgrace, or the recent housing bubble crisis which spawned this discussion, the free market/capitlism has shown itself to be irrational from the perspective of workers – the social majority. So it is of little wonder that capitalists and petty capitalists, such as the owners of, say, the Kaufman and Broad Homes Corp., and Frank Visco, have remained utterly committed to the idea of the so-called free market despite the social havoc left in their wake. But, after all, the interests of capitalists are seldom if ever in line with the interests of workers. Therein lies capitalism’s chief inherent contradiction, and therein lies the nexus of not only the Antelope Valley’s housing debacle but also of America’s housing debacle in general.
I believe that the problem with free market cheerleaders the likes of PKShaw, Matt, is that they adhere to an ideology while believing that ideology to be a theory, that is to say, if capitalism were representative of free markets, then, by logical extension, there would exist efficiency and economic growth within those markets, and everyone would benefit. But, as noted by Matt’s well-stated analysis of the Antelope Valley’s housing market, and as reinforced by PKShaw’s groundless “The free market provides its own moratorium…” that is strictly a belief, it is not a fact.
Moreover, their ideology is used to protect and perpetuate a misanthropic economic system that is firmly predicated upon endless accumulation as well as one that now has precious little to do with production but, rather, with speculation – speculation which, amongst other such things, has led to the deindustrialization of American
society and the subsequent loss of millions of well-paying jobs.
Finally, I am of the mind that Matt’s sobering interpretation of the Antelope Valley’s housing glut has furnished us with an insight having to do with the deficiencies of the ideology held by PKShaw and millions of others, which has held sway over the American mindset since at least the early 1980s, and which has vowed to lift all boats; but instead has greatly weakened the standard of living of tens of millions of workers, and heightened social inequality and social insecurity within the Antelope Valley as well as within the rest of American society. This, then, leaves us with the question: What type of economic system would truly serve the needs of human beings?


Yours in revolution..
Guy R. Marsh..
Lancaster, 93535..
Member-at-large (since 1990):
Socialist Labor Party of America (est. 1890)





05/30/11 - 06:31 PM
roxi says...
Guy R. Marsh writes: “…In his book Daniel De Leon: Internationalist (New York Labor News, 1944), the late Arnold Petersen (a past national secretary of the Socialist Labor Party) wrote: Capitalism cannot survive as we understand the term. What will survive (on a worldwide scale) will consolidate itself as an international economic imperialism; and this we know also: In such a world the workers will continue as industrial serfs, their social status further degraded, their individual liberties further restricted,…”
__________________________
In today’s LAT OpEd page, The G-8 takes on the Net, a couple of quotes stood out beyond the pale: French President Sarkozy, in his defense of governments, lawmakers and regulators (to) wield more control over the internet: “because…governments are the ONLY legitimate representatives of the will of the people in our democracies.”

So, it’s already being attempted – this effort of ‘global-domination’ of collective ‘thought’, or as the ‘Times’ editorial says "…try to make the Internet comply with some global behavioral norm.
_______________
As long as Corporations across the globe can make huge profits without hiring workers, there will be no jobs.
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

The Einstein quote: “…The splitting of the atom has changed everything save for our mode of thinking…as a result we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe..”

…reminds me of Oppenheimer’s views during the Cold War and Arms Race between the U.S. & Russia during the 50’s; how much he was against Nuclear proliferation, as were other scientists who invented the H-Bomb. They too could only see a future of catastrophe, and their rewards for these alerts were accusations of being COMMUNISTS, even though they invented these Global Domination devices in the first place.

The World does not need workers anymore. In the eyes of the Capitalists, all creative and collective thought has been “collected”.
( send private message )

05/30/11 - 06:55 PM
Cagy Wolf says...
The NWO has been here for years, it wasn’t until the middle class started being affected (and Lou Dobbs whining and bitching) was it noticed. American workers of working poor class knew this years ago, this flood of illegal aliens in the workplace started in 1980, seven years before Reagan gave illegals amnestry therefore encouraging millions more to come.
( send private message )
05/30/11 - 06:59 PM
Cagy Wolf says...
There are no benefits to having an open border for many reasons.
1. Undermines the american workers employment and wages.
2. Increased crime as more who don’t want to work.
3. Welfare and other social services drained supplying aid to those that (just want to come here work.)
4. Housing.
5. Social Security benefits already in danger since the govt. has borrowed billions from SS and never put the funds back in.
( send private message )
05/30/11 - 07:03 PM
Cagy Wolf says...
As long as big business and special interests groups are able to influenece washington d.c. then we are stuck in the ditch. Campaign donations should be abandoned and forbidden, let those that want to be elected spend their own money.
But then you just get a bunch of rich bastards still controlling the economy and congress.
( send private message )
05/30/11 - 07:12 PM
AV Town Crier says...
Guy

In a perfect world, I would totally agree with you. The problem with capitalism is that its fostered by greed. Greed is part of our being.

I wish it were otherwise. Greed is solely responsible for all the woes in the world.

As for open borders, we wouldn’t need them is a truly greed-free Marxist society. But since that doesn’t exists and won’t exists in our life-times, we need to try to contain the greed.

Sadly, this country (and most of the world) is run by the greedy, namely the international banking cabal. Just look at congress.

Back to the borders: I think we need borders as it stands right now. But, I do feel that there needs to be changes in the immigration laws. The fact of the matter is that we do need the cheap labor.

But it should be restricted to those industries that have historically used immigrant labor (legal or otherwise). The agriculture, garment, and hotel industries.

Congress should create a guest worker type program (for the sake of this discussion, we’ll call it a ‘blue-card.’) They would have to submit their finger-prints to assure no serious criminal record.

They would NOT be taxed (other than sales tax) and would have to be provided fair housing for their stay (if seasonal). There would be no restriction on them sending money back home. If after a (lets say 3 year) period of no criminal convictions, they would be eligible for green card status (if they chose to do so).

This would solve a lot of the border issues.

But as far as having a border—we are a sovereign nation. As such, it was decided that we need to control our borders. That’s only fair.

This is due to the fact that we live in an imperfect world and humans are imperfect.

I would support your theory 100% Guy if you can show me how to solve the greed issue. (I would accept killing off all the greedy assholes if that would help)
( send private message )

05/30/11 - 07:26 PM
AV Town Crier says...
Guy

I agree with the second part of your thesis regarding free-market place. It doesn’t really exists. It’s there i name only, but in fact, as you stated, is controlled by the greedy few for their benefit.

Our problem in this country is that we have uncontrolled capitalism (greed) without any social responsibility. Congress used to be that balance. But no more. The Supreme Court used to be the final protector—but alas, no more.

The sad reality Guy, is that we’re doomed.
( send private message )

05/30/11 - 07:29 PM
AV Town Crier says...
CW

You are correct about campaign contributions. A recent Supreme Court ruling only made it worse.

The Club of Rome is in firm control. We have long lost control of our country to the powerful NWO forces controlled by the international banking cabal. We—the people, are we—the chumps.
( send private message )

05/30/11 - 07:32 PM
Cagy Wolf says...
AV Town Crier would you work for $8.00 an hour?
For years the minium wage was stuck at $5.00 an hour and only recently in the last decade has it rise to about a third of what it should be considering rent, gasoline, mortaged payments, food prices. Do you know what its like to run a business and work two part times jobs and your old lady working two jobs? That is the problem with the working poor, we have been undermined by the availability of cheap labor supplied by illegal and legal immigrants. Not to mention companies building factories out of the USA and the outsourcing of services online in other countries. The only change that needs to be done is more enforcement of the present immigration laws, take business licenses away from those that insist on using illegal aliens as a labor force, fine employers who hire illegals and finally jail those who knwoingly hire illegal aliens.
( send private message )
05/30/11 - 07:34 PM
Cagy Wolf says...
You have a newspaper use it and keep the pressure on those that would make us their wage slaves.
( send private message )
05/30/11 - 07:35 PM
Cagy Wolf says...
The only concession I would make is a guest worker program like germany has. Once the fruit is picked home you go.
( send private message )
05/30/11 - 07:45 PM
AV Town Crier says...
CW
Your correct. That’s why i suggested restricting it to just those industries I stated. And your last statement is correct.
( send private message )
05/30/11 - 08:44 PM
roxi says...
05/30/11 – 06:55 PM
Cagy Wolf says…
The NWO has been here for years, it wasn’t until the middle class started being affected (and Lou Dobbs whining and bitching) was it noticed. American workers of working poor class knew this years ago, this flood of illegal aliens in the workplace started in 1980, seven years before Reagan gave illegals amnestry therefore encouraging millions more to come.
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––
CW, you are correct about the poor being affected by the influx of cheaper labor (illegals), but also don’t forget the Unions, who experienced the same gradual loss of work=income because of cheap labor — bought up by greedy corporations, no matter what the worker’s legal status.

It has been a gradual assault on middle and upper-middle class job workers with lowering wages, first by firing massive amounts of workers and demanding that the existing workers do 2, sometimes 3 jobs within the co., and fired “at-will” if they couldn’t pull it off.

Then there was the constant changing of job descriptions, disqualifying 1,000 of people, and re-qualifying them into 1/2 the wages they were making before.

After that, all benefits like health insurance and retirement were slashed – all for profit that now “earns” CEO’s over $4BILLION a year.

1,000’s and 1,000’s of Americans are falling off the cliff. 1,000’s do not have health care, or the means to pay for it. Meanwhile, the cost of living continues to climb, wages are frozen or going down, and jobs are scarce.

International Corporations, and the U.S. Congress are forcing America into a Welfare State – and no one seems to care.
( send private message )

05/31/11 - 06:45 AM
dianabw says...
The horse is already out of the barn so to speak. Illegal aliens are here to stay, their offspring are going nowhere, and Howard Buck McKeon didn’t do crap about the situation for years and neither did anyone else. The Runners did nothing but make a big deal out of Jessica’s law that is tied up in the courts and worrying about morticians having sex with deal bodies.

Geeze, what a great political record of our politicians in this valley so why bother about the immigration issue. They don’t care.
( send private message )

05/31/11 - 02:28 PM
Cagy Wolf says...
DBW well we can close the barn door for starters and take away the incentive to come by forcing every employer to make sure their employees are entitled to be here and work. Simple.
( send private message )
06/01/11 - 06:48 PM
Sovereignty Soldier says...
Guy said…First of all, my support of open borders – of their being no borders at all – is not something that stands within the framework of capitalist society, but rather within that of a futuristic socialist commonwealth.

Seeing how our current politicians, on both sides, are for open borders too, seems like your dream utopia is in the works Guy. The fact of our statement shows you know the two party system is a sham. They are ALL globalists who prefer socialism that consolidates the peoples’ wealth, making it easy to steal from one pot. The ruling class in all systems become corrupt and seek total power by controlling the people. They also never live on the same economic level as that which they force upon their people.
( send private message )

06/02/11 - 11:31 AM
Cybertariat says...



With all respect due you, Mike, it is my belief that you have failed to understand my position respecting open borders and, as per usual, that you understand even less with respect to the very meaning of Marxian socialism, which is to say that you understand nothing with respect to the meaning of Marxian socialism.

Persevere..
Guy..





( send private message )
06/03/11 - 01:41 AM
Cagy Wolf says...
This has to do with immigration issues not whether someone understands another’s position and respect. Illegal and legal immigration affects americans in numerous ways, the worse is that it undermines wages and employment. Not to mention the billions spent on both legal and illegal immigrants living it up on welfare and other social services.
( send private message )
06/03/11 - 02:47 AM
Cybertariat says...



Sovereignty Soldier (S.S.): “Seeing how our politicians on both sides are for open borders too, seems like your dream utopia is in the works, Guy.”

Yes, as I stated within this thread’s parent post and although I would not advocate the opening of borders for as long as capitalism remains this society’s de facto economic system, I believe that if open borders were to come to fruition within the existing economic order and as it would concern the free movement of labor, it would come about by way of the political or plutocratic state (the “two” party system) rather than by the demands of socialists. Yet such an opening would be anything but my “dream ‘utopia’” because, again, the US capitalist class would then be able to employ unchecked immigration as a tool of economic terrorism against workers just as it does now to one degree or another. For politicians the open borders “dispute” has been a very good thing – in fact too good to let go of. In his preface to Karl Marx’s essay concerning “free trade” which is closely associated with the issue of open borders, Frederick Engels wrote (in part): “…the interests of the professional politicians, the wire-pullers of the traditional [the pro-capitalist] political parties is not a settlement of the question, but its being kept open forever.”
The twin issues of free trade and open borders have come to the forefront in modern-day American society through the likes of NAFTA, CAFTA and still other international capitalist trade agreements which have already and largely negated American sovereignty thereby opening the US border quite completely, or at least as the free flow of capital is concerened. So what our S.S. sees as “globalists who prefer ‘socialism’…” are really nothing other than capitalists who now operate on an ever-increasing global scale, through their political servants and while thoroughly detesting the very thought of socialism – the collective/societal ownership and democratic administration of the means of industrial/economic production.
So, yes, "politicians on both sides [of the same capitalist coin] are for open borders, but only as it concerns the interests of capital and thus capitalists not human beings.

Good evening..
Persevere..
Guy..





( send private message )
06/03/11 - 03:46 AM
marino says...
Karl Marx also stated, “Is it a misfortune that magnificant California was seized from the lazy Mexicans who did not know what to do with it?” Friedrich Engels added, “In America, we have witnessed the conquest of Mexico and have rejoiced at it. It is to the interest of its own developement that Mexico will be placed under the tutelage of the United States.”

Much of Marx’s ideas can be found in a book written by former communist Nathaniel Weyl, titled “Karl Marx, Racist” (1979).
( send private message )

06/03/11 - 04:18 AM
Cybertariat says...



While being devoid of the sophistication required of him to refute much of anything that I have written within this thread, the desperate-to-discredit marino unearthed – for the third time – the longstanding and typically idiotic right-wing rubbish having to do with Karl Marx’s and Frederick Engels “racism” (as if marino is not a racist).
I invite readers to access my archived post Marx, anti-Jewry, racism and the ‘National Socialist usurpation in order to gain a better understanding of the simpleminded marino’s desperation (scroll to the second page of said archive).

Persevere..
Guy..





( send private message )
06/03/11 - 12:51 PM
Cybertariat says...



What will be your next trick, marino, to parrot another of your more literate reactionary heroes who desperately claim that Henrietta Marx complained about her son’s writing of Capital despite the fact that she died no fewer than four years prior to the publication of Capital: Volume I? Yeah, go ahead and throw up that bit of twaddle yet again, marino, perhaps this time it will stick.
Read a book, marino. Any book will do

Persevere..
Guy..





( send private message )
06/04/11 - 03:02 AM
Cagy Wolf says...
The New Economics Foundation in their Happy Planet Index—that Cubans are the 7th happiest people in the world.
Yeah, that’s why so many of them risk being drowned or eaten by tiger sharks trying to get to the United States (whose people are apparently only the world’s 114th happiest).
Why doesn’t Cuba have open borders? Cuba is an example of how communism failed like in the old USSR. Virtually every country that is marxist are inhumane hellholes with the people starving and trying to escape. China is the only successful “communist” country and only by using capitalistic principals. Nope marxism is a failure and open borders just add less security and opens the door for more perverts, more criminals, more freeloaders and more unemployment for americans.
( send private message )
06/04/11 - 03:17 AM
avbornbred says...
Capitalism would be working in defense of the economy of the USA. If open borders, like they aren’t open now, would just increase the chances of an economin disaster. A strong capitalism approach with an agressive private sector would lead the way for more people having jobs. If we move towards socialism, we will become a two class system like Mexico already is, 10% have 90% of the money. The 90% are dirt poor. The ruling class in Mexico likes their situation just fine.
( send private message )
06/04/11 - 05:51 PM
avbornbred says...
Everyone on this blog has their own stereotypes. The libs view of the people at LBC. The conservatives have our views of libs. Racism is pure hatred for one race or type of people. Hatred to the point that vulgar names are commonly used to make reference to one group.

I don’t think anyone on this blog, liberal or conservative has any severe hatred for any one group or race.
( send private message )

Post a comment:

Would you like to comment on this blog post? Login to talk back!